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Post Info TOPIC: At spoonfeeding school again...


FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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At spoonfeeding school again...


Well the time has come again for me to continue my education in order to remain warranty certified, this time in Gas Drivability. 

The new course they added to the curriculum is for Gasoline turbocharged direct injected engines, or "ecoboost" as Ford calls it.  This one won't be as big a deal as the 6.7 thread I started last year, because these are already for sale and driving around the streets, so there really isn't any need for "spy pics" in this case.  Just imagine a 3.5 v6 with a couple of really tiny turbochargers, and a direct injected fuel system that gets it's up to 2100 psi from a cam driven high pressure pump.  In this way, the fuel system has more in common with a 6.4 or 6.7 Diesel than it does with it's non "ecoboost" cousin 3.5 V6.  Diagnostics are different, and there are more pid acronyms to memorize.  The only special tools it seems to require are for injector removal and sealing ring replacement.  No Rex, your pick axe that you use for 6.0 rear mains won't work, so if you're going to ever work on these, you're going to have to man up and call Rotunda to order some tools.

Aside from that it's a pretty impressive little package.  These are putting out incredible horsepower and torque numbers while getting great fuel economy.  Actually they are capable of making quite a bit more power than they do, but the transaxles can't handle any more so they de-tune them in order to keep the trannys alive.

Any questions?

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So... They are boosting Gasoline to 2100 PSI now huh? Amazing. I wasn't aware you could do that without the risk of explosion. I know they been doing it with Diesel for quite some time, but Gasoline?

Must have something to do with that direct injection terminology. Days of old it was known as "tumbling" fuel down the intake manifold to "Atomize" the fuel. Then came the era of Ported Fuel injection that would squirt fuel on the top of the intake valve, now we have direct injection that sprays gasoline directly into the combustion chamber. Guess that's why they need such high fuel pressures out of the injector, to atomize the gasoline. Still not impressed, it just means more money for injectors which will no doubt wear out just after the warranty.

As for the small turbo's.... Well that's nothing too impressive. Just more heat and more chances for an exhaust leak. I am sure it will boost low and mid range power along with efficancy but we both know people can't keep their foot out of them, and as such they end up burning more fuel overall.

I am sure they de-tune them in an effort to offer up more power for the next years models, but I guess given the fact Ford's likes to make their engines obsolete every 3-5 years it's somewhat a moot point.

With regards to my mini pick axe aka seal puller, well that baby has saved my biscuits on more than one occasion, and don't try acting like you don't own one as well.

Maybe they will put you up in a 5 star hotel and allow you to go sight seeing while your there. Heck maybe they will make a 2 million dollar per day event out of it!?

By the way... What kind of vehicles is this new 3.5 v6 engine found in? Just trucks or are they putting it in cars also?



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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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It's already in Lincoln MKS and Taurus SHO, It's an option in the Edge, and it's the premium engine offered in the 2011 F150... And when I say Premium, they even rank it higher than the 5.0 DOHC "coyote" and 6.2 SOHC big block in the heirarchy. Though the 6.2 is rated with slightly higher power numbers, I'm told the Ecoboost V6 actually pulls better.

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Taurus SHO?

So you are telling me that Ford's has labeled Yamaha's injection system as "Premium"? Oh yeah, that's right... It's much cheaper to pay them Asians to build parts than it is us Americans.

Back in the day I took a lot of money from punk's driving their daddy's Taurus SHO in my Ford SUHC 5.0 Mustang. I would imagine the same would hold true even for today's new Taurus SHO.

Oh well...



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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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The OLD Taurus SHO's had Yamaha engines and multi port injection.  This thing is all Ford baby, and it has DIRECT injection...  Actually Bosch built the fuel system for this one, but they did it to Ford specs to avoid having Ford pay UAW workers in Michigan to do it.

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I wasn't aware that Ford dumped Yamaha engines in the new SHO. That's good news in my book!

I think I already explained the whole DIRECT injection thing above, but I am still curious about them pressurizing fuel to 2100 PSI. Are you sure about that PowerStroker?

With regards to Ford's cutting out the UAW here in Michigan, are you sure about that? Because last time I checked there was a SLEW of Bosch plants here in Michigan who no doubt have unions as well. Think you could dig up the details of exactly what state the injection system was made in?

All things considering, this engine does look rather easy to service.







Maybe Ford's is turning over a new leaf?



-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 23rd of January 2011 01:39:48 PM

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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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2100 psi at full load is correct on this engine. It is necessary to have extremely high fuel pressure on direct injected applications in order to be able to overcome cylinder pressures when the piston is at TDC. Multi port injection is usually 35-60 psi, and a non running compression test is higher than that - thus the need for extreemly high pressure because now we are injecting directly in to the combustion chamber instead of on top of a closed intake valve.  Diesels inject at over 25,000 psi at full load for the same reason.

My remark about the UAW was merely my being a smart ass.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Thursday 20th of January 2011 09:59:07 PM

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You know PowerStroker... Some how I think people have this pressure thing ALL WRONG.

Fuel coming out at 25,000 PSI would almost blow a hole thru the piston. 2100 PSI is also somewhat out of the realm of reason when it comes to a volatile fuel.

Perhaps they are reffering to the seat pressure of the valve? You know the one on the injector that opens up and closes? I could be wrong, but maybe it's because I don't own any fuel pressure gauges that go past 160 PSI.

Could you please post us a photo of a fuel gauge that reads up to 25,000 PSI?

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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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you don't use a mechanical gauge on the high pressure side of these systems. If you want to know what's going on there, you simply hook up your IDS and monitor your FRP (fuel rail pressure) data.

I stand by my statements on the full load injection pressures of these engines, and those of Diesels. 

Even the OLD antique indirect injected diesels (pre powerstroke) with mechanical injection pumps had a low pressure delivery system, and then inside the injection pump the pressure was boosted tremendously in order to overcome cylinder pressures for injection.  That's why they all had steel lines between the pump and injectors.  You are a Mercedes guy, I'm sure you've seen such things.  We even had a injection nozzle tester which consisted of using a hydraulic pump to check the nozzles for leakage and opening pressure.  This is why there is no such thing as a carbureted diesel. 

Now take your 6.0 with it's already obsolete HEUI injection system that you are at least somewhat farmiliar with.  It has fuel fed in to a lower chamber of the injector at about 50 psi, but fuel is actually injected in the cylinders at up to 25,200 psi.  On a HEUI system, this is done with the use of a high pressure oil system and an intensifier piston inside the injectors seperating the oil and fuel.  The oil side of that intensifier piston is 7 times greater than the fuel side.  This allows for force multiplication of 7 when the electronic spool valve opens and HP oil is applied to that piston.  This means at idle when ICP is around 600, the pressure of the actual fuel being injected is 600x7 which equals 4200 psi.  At full load when 3600 psi of high pressure oil is working against the large surface of that piston, the injection pressure is 3200x7 = 25,200 psi being injected in to the combustion chamber.

The newer common rail Diesel injection systems don't use high pressure oil or intensifier pistons, they simply have a high pressure fuel pump which raises the fuel pressure to the high levels needed for injection, and their injectors are much more simple and less likely to fail.

Since the Ecoboost gas engine has a very similar fuel injection system to a diesel, without the extreme cylinder running pressures that Diesels exhibit, only 2100 psi is necessary for full load conditions, though at idle it's more like 250 psi.



-- Edited by PowerStroker on Friday 21st of January 2011 01:27:27 PM

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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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http://fordf150ecoboostforum.com/index.php?/topic/13-2011-eco-boost-hero-engine-tear-down/

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Watched all 3 of the videos. Guess the original 65 PSI is getting boosted to 2100 PSI (Like the Diesel engines). I would have to say that's about the most impressive part that I seen, however some of the electronics that control that system would have been equally interesting to learn about too.

I also just love how Ford's is using a main cap identical to that of the Mercedes Benz engines that were used back in the early 80's. I mean it's so blatant that I am surprised no one has mentioned it. Difference here is that on the six bolt main caps that Mercedes used, 4 of them six bolts are actually "Studs", which is superior to any bolt. None the less, I guess the patent must have expired for Mercedes, now Fords is running with it.

I am not too impressed with the valve train, as I have mentioned several times, they will soon be using electronic solenoids or something simillar (or hydraulics) to open and close valves, which will also eliminate a lot of moving parts on the upper end such as camshafts, chains, lifters/followers, sprockets and the expensive VCT units. Along with getting rid of a lot of moving parts will come reduced friction, a full spectrum of valve adjustments both in timing, duration and lift. 

All in all I was impressed with the balls Ford's had by tearing down the engine in front of everyone, rather than in the back room of some Ford's lab. Took some balls to do that.

Now with regards to the power output of the V6 eco boost, well all I can say is Buick was doing the same thing back in the 80's with their 3.8 liter. You see strapping on a Turbo charger and then renaming it to something "Green" like "EcoBoost" is not impressing me too much. Hell Fords even had to put TWO turbo's on there in order to get the numbers they were looking for. As they tore it apart it was clear they had heated up pretty good, and thus it's just like I said in the past, that these turbos will make for a real expensive repair 7-8 years down the road. Yes they did cool them down with coolant, but that's only going to result in more scaleing in the coolant system over time. It would be a good idea to change the coolant in these engines more often than the recommended interval.

Also I should mention that putting a 165,000 miles on a vehicle over a few months is much different than doing it over 8-10 years. While they claim the average person could not simulate their conditions I disagree. I am also positive they are using high end oils, changed anywhere from 1800-2800 miles. They are also likely using premium fuel and some of the components inside that engine were likely designed to a higher tolerance than what you will find in your "Run of the mill" 3.5 Eco boost that is sold to the public.

All things considered, I was proud to hear the engine was made in the USA, even if it was Cleaveland. GM builds it's ZR1 engines in Michigan which would mop the floor with just about any production vehicle that Ford makes and I don't think I have to remind you that the ZR1 is still a single under head camshaft engine with only two valves. 

So... While Fords 3.5 Eco Boost is a feather in their hat, it can't be argued that when this engine does wear out, it's curtains for the vehicle it's installed into as the cost to replace this engine will likely exceed the value of the vehicle in 8-10 years, and let's be honest, it's not like these vehicles are being made to last a lifetime to where anyone would want to own one for that long. Then there is the simple fact that Ford's likes to build things to be obsolete within 3-4 years, so you can buy a new one.

How many horsepower do you think eliminating the traditional valve train would net? Also how much more efficient do you think it would be? Well that's all anyone has to think of when asking themself "How will Fords top this"? It was clear when listening to the guy talking about the "Bucket" engine that he has seen the new way of the future in the secret labs and this ain't it. 

-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 23rd of January 2011 01:26:15 PM

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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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SELLC wrote:
They are also likely using premium fuel and some of the components inside that engine were likely designed to a higher tolerance than what you will find in your "Run of the mill" 3.5 Eco boost that is sold to the public.



 This was just a randomly selected engine from the production line, nothing special about it. 



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PowerStroker wrote:

 This was just a randomly selected engine from the production line, nothing special about it. 


Hey PowerStroker.... I watched the video pal... Did you?

I am pretty sure the warehouse they keep the engines in isn't looking "Hollywood Clean", and that high-loader looked like it just rolled off the assembly line as well.

Then of course there is the fact that if Fords built all them engines PRIOR to testing them in "Real Life" situations, then that would be pretty fucking ignorant, now wouldn't it?

So no, I don't buy Ford's claims when it comes to them claiming they just randomly chose an engine out of the warehouse. It was all staged... Just a Hollywood portrayal of them rolling out a new engine, which by the way is just simply a Direct injection DOHC with variable timing, coil over ignition and dual turbo chargers. There is nothing GREEN about this engine to merit the name "Eco-Boost" as most people that buy them have no intentions of keeping their foot out of the gas pedal. Yet another Bull-Shit claim by Ford Motor Company to appeal to the new "Green" campaign. 

 



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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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SELLC wrote:

Hey PowerStroker.... I watched the video pal... Did you?

Yup, and I've been following it on the web during it's abuse at the logging camp ect.

I am pretty sure the warehouse they keep the engines in isn't looking "Hollywood Clean", and that high-loader looked like it just rolled off the assembly line as well.

Privately owned dealerships are never that clean, but Ford corporate facilities actually are.

Then of course there is the fact that if Fords built all them engines PRIOR to testing them in "Real Life" situations, then that would be pretty fucking ignorant, now wouldn't it?

There was a lot of development and testing prior to mass production as always.

So no, I don't buy Ford's claims when it comes to them claiming they just randomly chose an engine out of the warehouse.

I believe it.

It was all staged... Just a Hollywood portrayal of them rolling out a new engine, which by the way is just simply a Direct injection DOHC with variable timing, coil over ignition and dual turbo chargers. There is nothing GREEN about this engine to merit the name "Eco-Boost" as most people that buy them have no intentions of keeping their foot out of the gas pedal. Yet another Bull-Shit claim by Ford Motor Company to appeal to the new "Green" campaign. 

V8 power with v6 fuel economy is a step in the right direction isn't it?  As I understand it, they were prepared to let whatever happened happen for all to see, even if it grenaded.

 




 



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PowerStroker wrote:

Yup, and I've been following it on the web during it's abuse at the logging camp ect.

It's fitting... The logging camp anyway, given the Paul Bunyon "tall tale" theam of it all.

Privately owned dealerships are never that clean, but Ford corporate facilities actually are.

I guess you never been inside and or seen the outside of the Wayne Michigan Assembily plant then huh? Still a rookie!

There was a lot of development and testing prior to mass production as always.

Yeah like with the 6.0 Turbo Diesel? C'mon PowerStroker, big companies just don't roll the dice when it comes to money. Face it buddy, you took the bait hook, line and sinker.

I believe it.

Yeah I know.. But you also believe in the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy too. Is that supposed to hold some kind of "weight" around here? Just because your Number 2? Or should I say full of Number 2?

V8 power with v6 fuel economy is a step in the right direction isn't it?  As I understand it, they were prepared to let whatever happened happen for all to see, even if it grenaded.

 

Like I said before... Buick did it back in the 80's with the 3.8 V6 Buick Grand Nationals and Regal T-types. No one ever got good milage because they couldnt keep their foot out of them. Dodge did it with the Stealth and GT 3000's. Hell Ford's was even into the action with the SVO 2.3 Turbo Mustangs and the 3.8 Supercharged Thunder chickens. Of course back then it wasn't "Hip" to call any of the above "Eco" anything. 

With regards to Fords letting the cards fall where they may... Well I am pretty sure the people with the money weren't going to let that happen, you know the board members and share holders. If something did happen we weren't going to hear about it, that's for damn sure. By the way, did the 3.5 liter Eco Boost WIN the Baja race? And let's face it, 55 tons of lumber isn't exactly a lot of lumber. How many trunks do you think it takes to make 55 tons?

I rest my case.

Now the new 5.0 liter DOHC Mustang engine kind of tickles my fancy, but they didn't give it no pussy "Eco" friendly name, nor have they given it any turbos! Now that should be a crime!




 



-- Edited by SELLC on Monday 24th of January 2011 10:46:40 PM

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I will say this though...

I have seen some interesting design and innovative ideas in the 6.7 Scorpion.

But the 3.5 Eco Boost just doesn't give me a hard on like the 6.7 did. The 3.5 Eco Boost just seems like a modern day re-hash. Except for the direct injection, which I feel was a carry over from Diesel technology.


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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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The Ecoboost came in first in it's class, but not first overall in the Baja.

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PowerStroker wrote:

The Ecoboost came in first in it's class, but not first overall in the Baja.


First in class? What's that? Like some kind of "Sorry kid you suck, but here is an award so you don't cry".

So tell me PowerStroker... What place did the Ecoboost equipped truck come in?

 



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We need to know the important details...

(1) Was there a mini-bar at the hoe-tell Ford set you up in?

(2) Did the hotel room have porn channels? You know Romney got rid of porn at the Marriott

(3) Did you have room "Service"?

(4) How far did they send you for this "Spoon-Feeding".



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FAR BEYOND DRIVEN

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SELLC wrote:

 

We need to know the important details...

(1) Was there a mini-bar at the hoe-tell Ford set you up in?

Nope

(2) Did the hotel room have porn channels? You know Romney got rid of porn at the Marriott

Not this time... I've stayed at this hotel in the past and they used to.

(3) Did you have room "Service"?

It was available, but I just walked down the hall to the hotel's restaurant/bar

(4) How far did they send you for this "Spoon-Feeding".

Ankeny Iowa, a northern burb of Des Moines.  There is a community college there that teaches several automotive programs.  GM has their ASEP program there, Ford has their ASSET program, they also have a heavy duty truck / industrial Diesel program at that school.  Ford rents a workshop/classroom in the same building as their ASSET program for their continued technician specialty training - that's where I was.


I could have taken the same class at the Twin Cities training center in Chanhassen, MN which is 20 minutes from my house, but I like the occasional road trip.


 



-- Edited by PowerStroker on Thursday 17th of February 2011 12:30:17 PM

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Did you drive there in the Sat-Run? Or did you take the Ford?

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I drove the Ford to Ford school

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