Powerstroke Turbo Diesel 7.3 Liter VS. 6.0 Liter - Auto-Trend Repairs and Service Information Forums

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Powerstroke Turbo Diesel 7.3 Liter VS. 6.0 Liter

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

6.4, spartan tuner.

560HP, 1080FT-LBS.

Point. Set. Match. Hillbilly.

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

Comparing apples, oranges and pineapples...

The 7.3 (aka VT444E) is "old stuff". Old technology and too dirty to make it in todays requirements. A good engine, it could be tough to kill if used as intended and treated wisely. One of the simplest to work on (a conumdrum if there ever was one) , the HEUI injection system gave the engineers the ability to control fuel delivery more precisely than any previous systems. While it did have it's "pattern" failures, it would be hard to specifically call any of them true weaknesses... Nothing is forever and even the finest motor cars requires periodic maintenance and contain "sacrificial" parts.

The 6.0... based on the VT365, the 6.0PSD is a tough little mongrel. The base engine has proven time and again that it can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. While the 6.0 and the VT365 share a LOT of lineage, it is important to remember that they are quite different by the time they hit the streets. Fords version is already a hotrodded VT365. The variable geometry turbocharger, exhaust after-treatments and changes to the injectors and operating system have pushed this motor close to the brink of failure. Ford desired a motor that put out approximately 150% the horsepower delivered by the VT365 in it's "hottest" trim. The increased cylinder pressures required for this kind of power output have left the 6.0 PSD prone to cylinder seal failure. Using a chip or programmer can be sure death.... using the truck as a "grocery getter" could leave the VGT with stuck or sticking components... enough to drive cylinder pressures beyond the failure thresh-hold of the head bolts and gaskets. Using aftermarket cylinder head studs can help relieve this condition. Urban myths have helped lead to concerns with the exhaust tract.... "diesels like to idle" being one of the biggest misconceptions... The VT444 would abide wet stacking to a point... the 6.0 doesn't like it and the effects will be seen with exhaust aftertreatment concerns (particularly sticking EGR valves), bent push tubes (much like we saw in the 7.3) and VGT concerns - among others.

The 6.4 PSD.... while it marks the end of Fords relationship with Navistar regarding light truck engines... it doesn't signal the end of all Ford/Navistar relationships. The 6.4 was (as was the 6.0) only ever meant to be an interim engine. Technology and the state of the art is advancing at breakneck pace... emissions requirements are a driving force for these changes...

With each step in the evolution of the modern diesel engine, we see sweeping changes... changes that can have us giving our impressions of an engine.... but, at the same time, offering unfair comparisons. A motor with a simpe operating system is a "nice motor" for different reasons that one with a complex operating system would be considered a "nice motor".

I started out my career changing ignition breaker points.... and I have watched and learned as each new "breakthrough" in technology broke over the horizon. This an amazing trade to be in at this time.... We can chose to apply ourselves = grab it and ride it..... or we can chose to grab it by the tail and pray it doesn't shake us off.

At one point in time, you stated that didn't own a Ford... you owned an International.... Well - unless you have an old TravelAll or a Scout in the back yard.... You own a Ford.... Any engine parts you order will be reboxed Navistar parts... because it is a Navistar engine built to an agreement between Ford and Navistar.... Part of the deal between the two is that <GASP> Navistar will supply all the Navistar replacement parts in Fords parts system.... I fail to see what could be so hard to grasp, here.

My vote? I vote for the 6.7.... because this puppy is going to separate the men from the truck thieves.

-- Edited by PogoPossum at 02:03, 2009-02-24

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

That was a good read old man. Not bad.

I still dont like what you said at the end. I dont think its fair you make these claims when you dont even know the details. You claim to work at a dealer, are you telling me your shop does not see 8-9K repairs? And if you do, what if they didnt pay? What would be your course of action? Please humor me.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Big Angry Hillbilly wrote:

6.4, spartan tuner.

560HP, 1080FT-LBS.

Point. Set. Match. Hillbilly.

Spartan Tuner? Got any photos of this engine? What makes it build so much damn horsepower and torque? Is this motor sold to the general public? Or is this engine a one off for braging rights?

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

6.4 powerstroke, available in any 2008-9 f-250 to 550.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

You mean the stock 6.4 liters found in these newer trucks are pushing over 500 Hp!?

Thats amazing, times must be bad if they are turning up that kind of heat.

How are they holding up to that kind of power with everyday use?

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

Pride of the fleet.

Truck makes 350hp/650ft-lbs stock.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Well in stock trim thats only 10 more horsepower than the 6.0 but almost 100 more foot pounds of torque.

Whats the pride of the fleet back in the 6.0 Powerstroke hay-day? Did they offer a monster like that back then too? They had to have.

-- Edited by SELLC at 21:40, 2009-03-03

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Actually it's 25hp more on a 6.4. A 6.0 is rated at 325hp and 560 or 570 pound feet depending on year if it's an F series. E series are derated. Check the blue sticker on your right valve cover.

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

Yeah, but my truck has TWO turbos biggrin

LOL :)

-- Edited by Big Angry Hillbilly at 17:35, 2009-03-04

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Would you rather have two small beers, or just one big old mug? The choice is clear, one cup two girls!

LOL

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

What's a 'Small' beer?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

This is what a few small beers look like-

Here is what a big beer looks like-

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

"Small beer" - that's that piss that yankees drink... Sometimes called "love on a beach".... I find it is "fuckin' near water".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg

Large beer... Pogo has brewed the odd batch that has come to 15% or so.... Manly beer.

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

SELLC wrote:

Having drove and serviced both the 7.3 and the 6.0 liter Turbo Diesel engines I am wondering what everyone else thinks.

I know the 03 PS 6.0 TD that I own puts out 340 HP and 560 FT. LBS of torque, but how does that stack up with the 7.3?

There are however some serious set backs with the 6.0 liter. One of them is the cost of parts, which are much more expensive than the 7.3 liter.

I read a lot about people having problems with the 6.0 and I have seen my fair share of problems with both the 6.0 and 7.3

So I ask you... What engine do you like better?

-- Edited by SELLC at 18:43, 2009-03-06

At least the 6.0 doesn't have that thing with the valve cover gaskets.... But I'm not sure what will be gained by offering the unison ring as a service part. This latest round of FICM concerns and the goofy TSB is a PITA - and God knows that rear crank seals are a bitch biggrin

And all this talk of high oil pressure and low oil pressure is enough to give one a headache...

At least I have convinced my customers that, even though I couldn't fix a sandwich, their trucks are now running good because of my efforts...

But I'm still in the dark over this ESOF thing.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PogoPossum wrote:

"Small beer" - that's that piss that yankees drink... Sometimes called "love on a beach".... I find it is "fuckin' near water".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg

Large beer... Pogo has brewed the odd batch that has come to 15% or so.... Manly beer.

I dont want to be a Canadian Idiot!

I know it stinks in here.... Cuz I'm the Shit!

You pussy's cant hang! I had you all beat down before 3am!

Daylight savings time boys! You just lost an hour for being an idiot!

-- Edited by SELLC at 05:23, 2009-03-08

Date: 03:46 PM Mar 8, 2009

SELLC wrote:

PogoPossum wrote:

"Small beer" - that's that piss that yankees drink... Sometimes called "love on a beach".... I find it is "fuckin' near water".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg

Large beer... Pogo has brewed the odd batch that has come to 15% or so.... Manly beer.

I dont want to be a Canadian Idiot!

I know it stinks in here.... Cuz I'm the Shit!

You pussy's cant hang! I had you all beat down before 3am!
Daylight savings time boys! You just lost an hour for being an idiot!

-- Edited by SELLC at 05:23, 2009-03-08

I like female body parts (*Y*) You're a DICK!

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

Oh my God!!!!! Who the fuck is that ratty little faggot bastard. Hasn't he realized that the 'C' in rap music is silent?

"Beat down before three AM?" Someone is after a hero cookie....

Many of us have a low thresh-hold for idiocy.... A bit of a rest is nice. As for daylight savings - not all provinces observe it. I am glad that mine does. It extends my "usable day" but you wouldn't understand why it can still be light out at midnight... or the other part of the year where you have less than 8 hours of daylight...

And.... it appears that not understanding things is one of your trademarks...

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

I'm not sure if Alberta uses EASTERN DAYLIGHT TIME....as when I lived out west I was in the MOUNTAIN STANDARD TIME zone.....

And it was the same time at Pogo's house as it was at my house.

-- Edited by Big Angry Hillbilly at 22:43, 2009-03-08

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Understanding Pogo is something that many gave up on long ago.

He would like to think thats because he is so darn smart, when we all know its because he's got a few screws loose.

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

Oh. there is every chance that I have several screws loose... we all have loose screws because it is part of the human condition... You, me, Obama... every last one of us.

In all truthfullness, I am no smarter than your average person. However, what separates me from the really foolish ones is that I "read the manual"...

No... isn't that both amazing and unique.... I can look in a fucking book and save my customer thousands of dollars.

You brag about your books... but don't appear to use them... Instead, you would rather embarass the rest of us by insinuating that you are one of us.

Look, Zippy, you got caught doing what amounts to sticking your wiener in the blender... Pull yourself up short, give your head a shake and admit that you desparately need to understand what you are working on.... Ya fucked up... young guys do it all the time.... Good judgement comes from experience - unfortunately, experience comes from bad judgement.

However, if you read the fucking manual, you can bypass all of that shit.... you can look like a champ to your customer (this would be the customer that paid his bill and still has a truck).

But no... you are the big Kahuna... you know how everything works. You can open a hood and gosh... only $12G later you own the hood...

There is none so blind as he who will not see..... I cannot believe that one person can be that fucking full of himself that he will charge people to do those things he is ill prepared to do.... And brag of it....

By this point in time, you have realized that the oil pressure gauge on the dash has very little to do with HEUI injectors. You may not have realize why the ICP and the IPR are so dependant on each other... We know that you have no idea why learning the VGT map is important on some trucks and non-existant on others.... We know that you don't know when or for how long there was no MAF sensor....

We know better than you do those things that you don't know.... and it is the things that you don't know that can hurt you the most...

Do I rely on manuals too much? Ask my customers.... (these would be the ones that still own their trucks and can pay their bills).

-- Edited by PogoPossum at 23:07, 2009-03-10

Date: 11:56 PM Mar 10, 2009

We at the Power Stroke Mafia had our ad department put together a commercial for you Rex, enjoy!

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Haaaaaaaaaa, Now that's funny

I had no idea the the folks down the hall in the advertising department were so talented.

Look what I've got Rex

Go get that vaseline

-- Edited by PowerStroker at 01:53, 2009-03-12

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Ha... Ha... Real funny.

Here is one for you

Nice little program. I will use it often I am sure.

-- Edited by SELLC at 06:03, 2009-03-12

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

Date: 04:59 AM Mar 12, 2009

Up late making that video?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Dude it took FOREVER until I got the hang of it, but I was provoked and very motavated.

Ford Girl · Veteran Guest

Did you manage to watch it? I tried clicking on it and it tells me the video is no longer available! confuse

Hey Rex, what happened? Were you scared of the reply that my hero pogo would post after seeing the video so you decided you were better off deleting it?

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

I believe the term is motIvated... but we wouldn't hold a mild case of dyslexia against you....

You still haven't replied to my query about the need for a complete set of injectors.... And it might interest you to know that a set of eight of these is one of the first straws an inexperienced, undertrained, poorly tooled shop will reach for. These puppies are over $400 CAD each and I would want to be sure that these have failed before I load a set of these into the patented SELLC parts cannon (I understand this interesting device can hold nearly $12000 USD worth of parts and labour - but I guess, for some, that it beats the hell out of buying those overpriced manuals or paying for some proper training - <GASP> BUYING a manual? Ya mean I gotta read shit?).

Once the ill prepared shop sees that the injectors didn't fix squat, frustration sets in and it's anyones guess what might get loaded into the old parts cannon after that... But, we can always resort to public internet forums and see what parts most guys are getting changed...

You still don't get it, do you? Yes... you deserve to make a living... If you are good, you deserve to make a fine living... fucking folks is not the way a tech should be making a living. We will leave that for... well, people that are not well prepared for the tasks at hand.

When presented with a Mercedes, I tell the owner that I am ill equipped to repair his car. I do not have the proper service manuals (the ones that outline factory approved technique, accepted practices, torque values/sequences/stages and any caveates that may apply to assemblies, sub-assemblies and preocedures). There is every chance that I do not possess a specific tool that will ensure that replacement parts are installed without damage and positioned correctly.... (at this point in time there are no less than three different tools required to insure that the steering knuckle to stub shaft seal is properly installed on the stub shaft and properly positioned in the steering knuckle on various years/models. Othere are work arounds... but for a work around to be effective, one has to realize that correct positioning of the seal is of paramount importance.... judging from the way the general public perceives the auto-locking hubs, I would opine that there are a lot of knuckle seals out there that haven't been installed properly.... )

But, I digress.... Can I fix a Mercedes? I have no doubt that I can.... Can I do it in a timely manner, in a financially responsible manner without making errors in procedure, errors regarding diagnosis of electronic systems, errors because my "jerk-off of all trades" scan tool isn't anywhere near as good as the factory approved scan tool" No... nobody can... shit or get off the fucking pot.

Go to the doctor.... are you going to trust an ear, nose and throat guy with open heart surgery? A better example.... Your dog is a Ford (pun intended) and you are a Mercedes (don't get excited... this would be an arrogant German)... You want your dog doctor working on you?

Yes... in our tool crib we have an IPR socket... a STORE BOUGHT IPR socket... Three of us in our shop (sorry, I spend very little time at the front counter) have built our own versions of ICP wrenches... and we know what years they are needed for.

In some respects, you may be sort of on the right track but all for the wrong reasons. Our scan tools.... I can't speak for Mercedes or VW or Toyota or what have you.... But, If I am working on a Ford... OBD2 or late diesel... I want to play with an IDS... Why? Use your scan tool and get me these three PIDs... ICP_V , ICP_PRESS and IPR#.

Tell me why I want to see two ICP PIDs... tell me what the fuck IPR# has to do with it... and then take command of IPR#, bump it up 20% and tell me what the motor does and tell me what your two ICP readings do....

Bonus points if you disconnect the ICP and tell me what KOEO volts is and what KOEO pressure is.

I can't speak for anyone else.... all I want to see is for SELLC to start acting like the professional he pretends to be. I want to see SELLC realize that we are further ahead if we KNOW a LOT about a FEW things rather than KNOWING a LITTLE about a LOT of things. With the state of technology these days, there ain't know way in hell that you are maximizing your earnings or helping your customer if you pretend to know too much.

You have a low opinion of me... And what really bothers you is that I don't fucking care. But I've been doing this for 40 years... and I am smart enough to know that there are things I know.... things I don't know... and things I refuse to guess at. And, if you worked for me.... I would know exactly where you are coming from. You would have two pay periods to brush that chip off your shoulder.

I can't say that a pair of coveralls is a "uniform" (actually, "uniforms" in service departments seem to be a 'Murican thing)... However, I have coveralls that my employer pays for... over one tit I have a Ford oval (so much for "fancy") and over my other tit I have POGOs "other" name.... My service manager wishes that I would just shut the fuck up.... in between fits of laughter. If you think I can get "fancy logo", I will be eternally grateful and give you........

Whoa!!!! For a second I started to think that you were a good looking prostitute instead of a crack whore....

Anyway... you get a taste for the complexities generated by a few simple statements made by you. But we still haven't approached the intracacies of the 6.0 PSD motor and it's operating system. You seem to feel that dealer techs are the enemy.. reality is that YOU are the enemy. You have accepted one truck as payment... looks like a fuckin' slippery slope to me..

Shit, did I digress again? Anyway... I have a lot of training and experience with the 6.0 (ooooh, this makes me stupid.... if I didn't know anything about this operating system, I would be smart? ).

OK... I have seen too muck of this operating system to be objective... I have a pretty good grasp of the way it operates and that means I am unaware of the way it operates... If I had stopped learning when I first opened the hood of a 6.0, I would be further ahead. But no... like a fool I plunged ahead.... I decided that I could be better.... But... now you tell me I could know everything about the 6.0 without ever having to learn anything.... And all I have to do is use the judicial msystem to steal one from some poor unsuspecting shmuk that is already down on his luck and may be one insult away from going sideways....

But fuck him... he wants ME to fix his truck because he TRUSTS ME....

Jeez... ain't I a windy bastard.... Better windy than stupid, I guess....

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PogoPossum wrote:
In some respects, you may be sort of on the right track but all for the wrong reasons. Our scan tools.... I can't speak for Mercedes or VW or Toyota or what have you.... But, If I am working on a Ford... OBD2 or late diesel... I want to play with an IDS... Why? Use your scan tool and get me these three PIDs... ICP_V , ICP_PRESS and IPR#.

Tell me why I want to see two ICP PIDs... tell me what the fuck IPR# has to do with it... and then take command of IPR#, bump it up 20% and tell me what the motor does and tell me what your two ICP readings do....

Bonus points if you disconnect the ICP and tell me what KOEO volts is and what KOEO pressure is.

I personally do not own an International Diagnostics Scanner, you sir, do not either. Your dealership owns it, and even then, it gets all of its info from International. Back before guys like you got lazy we had to pin out the values. You know Ford was a little slow when it came to displaying live sensor values, unlike GM who had it clock-clock on lock.

Newer scan tools that I have access to such as the Vantage and the Motis can actually do all these things you are talking about, including cycling an injector. When an injector cycles and there is no sound, do you know what that means Pogo? Why 8? I think thats pretty effing obvious.

Anyway to answer your other questions-

Injection Control Pressure Regulator Voltage - 4.0 - 5.5 Volts
Injection Control Pressure Regulator PSI - About 1500-1600 PSI

KOEO = 11.34V from a pin-out

But thats the whole mentality of Ford to try and circumvent the OBD regulations with these such things. No I can not just add in 20% to the ICPR unless I do it manually, which would be the equivalent of adding almost a few volts.

I know it really bothers Fords that there are work-arounds for getting the information. No I can not flash a computer, however I would think something like this was taken away from solid state in an effort once again to cercumvent the OBD regulations and make it hard for anyone else but Fords to enjoy the luxury of such interfaces.

As far as PID's, well thats a nice little inside thing also. You answered your own question. You see two, one for pressure and one for volts. Still these things can be pinned out and pressure tested just like in the old days. Which one you looking to pin out? Do I need to goto the hardware store to get my "Special Tool"? You know I keep a special "Tool" in my trunk for breaking into dealerships.

Acronym PID # Description Ford Units
4X4L 1101 b2 Requested 4 Wheel Drive Input ON/OFF
ACCS 1101 b0 Air Conditioning Cycling Switch Input ON/OFF
ACP 1102 b0 A/C Head Pressure Switch Input OPEN/CLOSED
ACP V 1638 A/C Head Pressure Switch Input VOLTS
AIR 1104 b4 Secondary AIR Pump Control ON/OFF
AIRM 110C b1 Secondary AIR Pump Monitor ON/OFF
BARO 1127 Barometric Pressure (may be software determined) Hz
BPP/BOO 1101 b1 Brake Pedal Position/Brake On-Off Switch Input ON/OFF
CAMDCR 16CF Commanded Duty Cycle for VCT Solenoid %
CAMERRR 16CE VCT Error in Crankshaft Degrees DEGREES
CAS GND 16CO PCM Case Ground VOLTS
CCS 1105 b7 Coast Clutch Solenoid Control ON/OFF
CHT 1624 Cylinder Head Temperature Input DEGREES
CHT V 1685 Cylinder Head Temperature Input VOLTS
CPP/PNP 1101 b3 Clutch Pedal/Park Neutral Position Switch Input ON/OFF
DPFEGR 114E Differential Pressure Feedback EGR Input VOLTS
ECT 1139 Engine Coolant Temperature Input DEGREES
ECT V 114D Engine Coolant Temperature Input VOLTS
EFTA 168E Engine Fuel Temperature - Bank 1 Input DEGREES
EFTA V 168D Engine Fuel Temperature - Bank 1 Input VOLTS
EFTB 169O Engine Fuel Temperature - Bank 2 Input DEGREES
EFTB V 168F Engine Fuel Temperature - Bank 2 Input VOLTS
EGRVR 113C EGR Valve Vacuum Control %
EOT 1310 Engine Oil Temperature Sensor Input DEGREES
EOT V 16AF Engine Oil Temperature Sensor Input VOLTS
EOTF 16A9 Engine Oil Temperature Fault Detection YES/NO
EPC 11C0 Transmission Line Pressure Control PSI
EPC V 11B2 Transmission Line Pressure Control VOLTS
EVAPCPF 162F b2 Evaporative Emissions Canister Purge Fault YES/NO
EVAPCV 1167 Evaporative Emissions Canister Purge Vent Control %
EVAPCVF 1630 b3 Evaporative Emissions Canister Purge Vent Fault YES/NO
EVAPPDC 1166 Evaporative Emissions Canister Purge Control %
EVAPPF 1627 Evaporative Purge Flow Input VOLTS
EVAPVMA 1636 Evaporative Vapor Management Valve Internal Circuit
Monitor VOLTS
FF 16AB Flex Fuel Sensor Input %
FLI 16C1 Fuel Level Indicator Input %
FLI V 16BF Fuel Level Indicator Input VOLTS
FP M 1673 Fuel Pump Secondary Monitor %
FPF 162E b6 Fuel Pump Output Fault YES/NO
FPM 110C b0 Fuel Pump Secondary Monitor ON/OFF
FRP 168C Engine Injector Pressure Input PSI
FRP V 168B Engine Injector Pressure Input VOLTS
FSVF 1691 b1 Engine Fuel Solenoid Valve Fault YES/NO
FSVM 1691 b2 Engine Fuel Solenoid Valve Secondary Monitor ON/OFF
FTP 1687 Fuel Tank Pressure Input in.H2O
FTP V 1639 Fuel Tank Pressure Input VOLTS
FUELPW1 1141 Injector Pulse Width Bank 1 MILLISECONDS
FUELPW2 1142 Injector Pulse Width Bank 2 MILLISECONDS
GEAR 11B3 Transmission Gear Status GEAR
GENF 0927 b2 Generator Output Fault Detection YES/NO
GENFDC 16E8 Generator Field Control Output %
GFS 0939 Generator Field Signal Monitor %
HFC 1103 b3 High Speed Fan Control ON/OFF
HFCF 162F b1 High Speed Fan Control Fault YES/NO
HTR11 1631 b0 Bank 1 Upstream O2S Heater Control ON/OFF
HTR11F 1631 b4 Bank 1 Upstream O2S Heater Circuit Fault ON/OFF
HTR12 1631 b1 Bank 1 Downstream O2S Heater Control ON/OFF
HTR12F 1631 b5 Bank 1 Downstream O2S Heater Circuit Fault ON/OFF
HTR21 1631 b2 Bank 2 Upstream O2S Heater Control ON/OFF
HTR21F 1631 b6 Bank 1 Downstream O2S Heater Circuit Fault ON/OFF
HTR22 1631 b3 Bank 2 Downstream O2S Heater Control ON/OFF
HTR22F 1631 b7 Bank 1 Downstream O2S Heater Circuit Fault ON/OFF
HTRX1 1102 b1/6 O2S Upstream Heater Control ON/OFF
HTRX2 1102 b2/7 O2S Downstream Heater Control ON/OFF
IAC 1153 Idle Air Control %
IAT 1123 Intake Air Temperature Input DEGREES
IAT V 114A Intake Air Temperature Input VOLTS
IAT2 16A8 Intake Air Temperature Sensor 2 Input DEGREES
IAT2 V 16A7 Intake Air Temperature Sensor 2 Input VOLTS
IMRC 1103 b4 Intake Manifold Runner Control ON/OFF
IMRC F 162F b6 Intake Manifold Runner Control Fault YES/NO
IMRCM 1634 Intake Manifold Runner Control Monitor Input Bank 1 VOLTS
IMTV 1684 Intake Manifold Tuning Valve Control %
IMTVF 162F b5 Intake Manifold Tuning Valve Fault YES/NO
INJ1F-8F 162D b0-7 Fuel Injector Primary Fault YES/NO
INJ9F-10F 16EA b0-1 Fuel Injector Primary Fault YES/NO
KS1 V 16E6 Knock Sensor Input Bank 1 VOLTS
KS2 V 16E7 Knock Sensor Input Bank 2 VOLTS
LFC 1103 b2 Low Speed Fan Control ON/OFF
LFCF 162F b0 Low Speed Fan Control Fault YES/NO
LONGFT1 1156 Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 %
LONGFT2 1157 Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 2 %
MAF 1671 Mass Airflow Rate Input GM/S
MAF V 1177 Mass Airflow Rate Input VOLTS
MAF V 1633 Mass Airflow Rate Input VOLTS
MIL 1103 b5 Malfunction Indicator Lamp Control ON/OFF
MPLRNa 16DD b0 Misfire Wheel Profile Learned in KAM YES/NO
OCTADJ 1102 b3 Octane Adjust Status OPEN/CLOSED
OCTADJS 16EF b0 Octane Adjust Software Status RETARD/NO RETARD
O2S11 1173 Bank 1 Upstream O2S Input VOLTS
O2S12 1174 Bank 1 Downstream O2S Input VOLTS
O2S21 1175 Bank 2 Upstream O2S Input VOLTS
O2S22 1176 Bank 2 Downstream O2S Input VOLTS
PIP 1102 b4 Profile Ignition Pickup Input ON/OFF
PSP 1101 b7 Power Steering Pressure Switch Input HIGH/LOW
PSP V 1626 Power Steering Pressure Input VOLTS
PSP V 1625 Power Steering Pressure Input VOLTS
PTO 160D b5 Power Take Off Status Input ON/OFF
RCAM 16CD VCT Solenoid Commanded in Crank Shaft Degrees DEGREES
REV 1697 b0 Transmission Reverse Switch Input ON/OFF
RPM 1165 Engine Speed Based Upon CKP Input RPM
SCB 0964 b0 Supercharger Bypass Control ON/OFF
SCBF 0964 b1 Supercharger Bypass Control Fault YES/NO
SCICP 0964 b2 Supercharger Intercooler Pump Control ON/OFF
SCICPF 0964 b3 Supercharger Intercooler Pump Control Fault YES/NO
SS1 1105 b4 Shift Solenoid 1 Control ON/OFF
SS2 1105 b5 Shift Solenoid 2 Control ON/OFF
SS3 1105 b6 Shift Solenoid 3 Control ON/OFF
TCC 11B0 Torque Converter Clutch Control %
TCCA 110E b7 Torque Converter Clutch Control Internal Circuit Monitor
ON/OFF
TCIL 1104 b2 Transmission Control Indicator Lamp Clutch Control Status
ON/OFF
TCS 1101 b4 Transmission Clutch Convertor Control Switch Input ON/OFF
TFT 1674 Transmission Fluid Temperature Input DEGREES
TFT V 11BD Transmission Fluid Temperature Input VOLTS
TP MODE 1125 Throttle Position Mode C/T, P/T, WOT
TP V 1154 Throttle Position Input VOLTS
TPB 1629 Secondary Throttle Position Input VOLTS
TPREL 1169 Lowest Steady TP Voltage Since Engine Start (RATCH) VOLTS
TR 11B6 Transmission Selector Position Input Status POSITION
TR V 1151 Transmission Selector Position Input Status VOLTS
TR D 16B5 Transmission Selector Position Input Status (Digital) BINARY
TSS/ISS 11B4 Turbine Shaft Speed/Input Shaft Speed RPM
VCTA 16B1 b6 VCT Control Circuit Monitor ON/OFF
VCTENA 16B1 b5 Conditions Correct to Enable VCT YES/NO
VPWR 1172 Vehicle Power Voltage VOLTS
VREF 1155 Vehicle Reference Voltage VOLTS
WAC 1104 b0 A/C Clutch Command ON/OFF
WACF 162E b5 WOT A/C Primary Circuit Fault YES/NO

Oh you want the codes too?

P1111 System Pass (No DTCs Available) P0107 BARO Circuit Low Input P0l08 BARO Circuit High Input P0112 IAT Sensor Circuit Low Input P0113 IAT Sensor Circuit High Input P0122 Accelerator Pedal Sensor Circuit Low Input P0123 Accelerator Pedal Sensor Circuit High Input P0197 EOT Sensor Circuit Low Input P0198 EOT Sensor Circuit High Input P0220 Throttle Switch B Circuit Malfunction P0221 Throttle Switch B Circuit Performance P0230 Fuel Pump Relay Driver Fail P0231 Fuel Pump Relay Driver Circuit Failure P0232 Fuel Pump Relay Driver Failed Off P0236 Turbo Boost Sensor A Circuit Performance P0237 Turbo Boost Sensor A Circuit Low Input P0238 Turbo Boost Sensor A Circuit High Input P0261 Injector Circuit Low - Cylinder 1 P0262 Injector Circuit High - Cylinder 1 P0263 Cylinder 1 Contribution/Balance Fault P0264 Injector Circuit Low - Cylinder 2 P0265 Injector Circuit High - Cylinder 2 P0266 Cylinder 2 Contribution/Balance Fault P0267 Injector Circuit Low - Cylinder 3 P0268 Injector Circuit High - Cylinder 3 P0269 Cylinder 3 Contribution/Balance Fault P0270 Injector Circuit Low - Cylinder 4 P0271 Injector Circuit High - Cylinder 4 P0272 Cylinder 4 Contribution/Balance Fault P0273 Injector Circuit Low - Cylinder 5 P0274 Injector Circuit High - Cylinder 5 P0275 Cylinder 5 Contribution/Balance Fault P0276 Injector Circuit Low - Cylinder 6 P0277 Injector Circuit High - Cylinder 6 P0278 Cylinder 6 Contribution/Balance Fault PO279 Injector Circuit Low - Cylinder 7 P0280 Injector Circuit High - Cylinder 7 P0281 Cylinder 7 Contribution/Balance Fault P0282 Injector Circuit Low - Cylinder 8 P0283 Injector Circuit High - Cylinder 8 P0284 Cylinder 8 Contribution/Balance Fault P0301 Fault Cylinder A-Misfire? Detected (CYL 1) P0302 Fault Cylinder B-Misfire? Detected (CYL2) P0303 Fault Cylinder D-Nlisfire? Detected (CYL 3) P0304 Fault Cylinder E-Misfire? Detected (CYL 4) P0305 Fault Cylinder F-Misfire? Detected (CYL5) P0306 Fault Cylinder G-Nlisfire? Detected (CYL 6) P0307 Fault Cylinder C-Misfire? Detected (CYL 7) P0308 Fault Cylinder H-Misfire? Detected (CYL 8) P0340 CMP Sensor Circuit Malfunction P0341 CMP Sensor Circuit Performance P0344 CMP Sensor Circuit Intermittent P0360 Glow Plug Circuit Malfunction P0381 Glow Plug Indicator Circuit Malfunction P0460 Fuel Tank Level Indicator Circuit Malfunction P0470 Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor Circuit Malfunction P0471 Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor Circuit Performance P0472 Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor Circuit Low Input P0473 Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor Circuit High Input P0476 Exhaust Pressure Control Valve Maffunction P0476 Exhaust Pressure Control Valve Performance P0478 Exhaust Pressure Control Valve High Input P0500 Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) Malfunction P0503 Vehicle Speed Sensor Noisy PO541 Manifold Intake Air Heater P0542 Manifold Intake Air Heater P0560 System Voltage Malfunction P0662 System Voltage Low P0563 System Voltage High P0666 Cruise 'On" Signal Malfunction P0566 Cruise "Off' Signal Malfunction P0667 Cruise 'Resume' Signal Malfunction P0668 Cruise "Set' Signal Malfunction P0669 Cruise "Coast' Signal Malfunction P0571 Brake Svdtch A Circuit Malfunction P0603 Internal Control Module KAM Error P0605 Internal Control Module ROM Error PO606 PCM Processor Fault P0640 Manifold Intake Air Heater P0670 Glow plug control circuit malfunction P0671 Glow plug #1 circuit failure P0672 Glow plug #2 circuit failure P0673 Glow plug #3 circuit failure P0674 Glow plug #4 circuit failure P0675 Glow plug #5 circuit failure P0676 Glow plug #6 circuit failure P0677 Glow plug #7 circuit failure P0678 Glow plug #8 circuit failure P0683 Glow plug diagnostic signal communication fault P0703 Brake Switch B Circuit Malfunction P0704 Clutch Pedal Position Switch Input Circuit Malfunction P0705 TR Sensor Circuit Malfunction P0707 TR Sensor Circuit Low Input P0708 TR Sensor Circuit High Input P0712 Transmission Fluid Temp. Sensor CKT Low Input P0713 Transmission Fluid Temp. Sensor CKT High Input P0715 TSS Sensor Circuit Malfunction Fault P0717 TSS Intermittent Failure P0718 Noisy TSS P0720 OSS Sensor Circuit Malfunction P0721 Noisy OSS P0722 OSS Intermittent Failure P0732 Gear Two Ratio Error P0733 Gear Three Ratio Error P0741 TCC Circuit Performance P0743 Torque Converter Clutch System Electrical Failure P0750 Shift Solenoid 1 Malfunction P0755 Shift Solenoid B Malfunction P0781 1-2 Shift Malfunction P0782 2-3 Shift Malfunction P0783 3-4 Shift Malfunction P1000 OBD 11 Monitor Checks Not Complete. More Driving Required P1105 Dual Alternator Upper Fault (Monitor) P1106 Dual Afternator Lower Fault (Control) P1107 Dual Alternator Lower Circuit Malfunction (Control) P1108 Dual Alternator BATT Lamp Circuit Malfunction P1118 Manifold Air Temperature Sensor Low Input P1119 Manifold Air Temperature Sensor High Input P1139 Water in Fuel Indicator Circuit Malfunction P1140 Water in Fuel Condition P1184 Engine Oil Tamp Sensor Circuit Performance P1209 Injection Control System Pressure Peak Fault P1210 Injection Control Pressure Above Expected Level P1211 ICP Not Controllable - Pressure Abow/Below Desired P1212 ICP Voltage Not at Expected Level P1218 CID Stuck High P1219 CID Stuck Low P1247 Turbo Boost Pressure Low P1248 Turbo Boost Pressure Not Detected P1249 Wastagate Fail Steady State Test P1250 Electronic Passive Anti-Theft? System P1261 High to Low Side Short - Cylinder 1 P1262 High to Low Side Short - Cylinder 2 P1263 High to Low Side Short - Cylinder 3 P1264 High to Low Side Short - Cylinder 4 P1265 High to Low Side Short - Cylinder 5 P1266 High to Low Side Short - Cylinder 6 P1267 High to Low Side Short - Cylinder 7 P1268 High to Low Side Short - Cylinder 8 P1 High to Low Side Open - Cylinder 1 P2 High to Low Side Open - Cylinder 2 P3 High to Low Side Open - Cylinder 3 P4 High to Low Side Open - Cylinder 4 P5 High to Low Side Open - Cylinder 5 P6 High to Low Side Open - Cylinder 6 P7 High to Low Side Open - Cylinder 7 P8 High to Low Side Open - Cylinder 8 P1280 ICP Circuit Out of Range Low P1281 ICP Circuit Out of Range High P1282 Excessive ICP P1263 IPR Circuit Failure P1284 ICP Failure - Aborts KOER or CCT Test P1291 High Side No. 1 (Right) Short to GND or B+ P1292 High Side No. 2 (Left) Short to GND or B+ P1293 High Side Open Bank No. 1 (Right) P1294 High Side Open Bank No. 2 (Left) P1295 Multiple Faults on Bank No. 1 (Right) P1296 Multiple Faults on Bank No. 2 (Left) P1297 High Sides Shorted Together P1298 IDM Failure P1316 Injector Circuit/IDM Codes Detected P1391 Glow Plug Circuit Low Input Bank No. 1(Right) P1393 Glow Plug Circuit Low Input Bank No. 2 (Left) P1395 Glow Plug Monitor Fault Bank No. 1 P1396 Glow Plug Monitor Fault Bank No. 2 P1397 SYstem Voltage Out of Self Test Range P1464 A/C On During KOER or CCT Test P1501 VSS Out Of Self Test Range P1502 Invalid Self Test - APCM Functioning P1531 Invalid Test -Accelerator Pedal Movement P1536 Parking Brake Applied Failure P1662 IDM EN Circuit Failure P1663 FDCS Circuit Failure P1667 CID Circuit Failure P1668 PCM -IDM Diagnostic Communication Error P1670 EF Feedback Signal Not Detected P1690 Wastegate Control Valve Malfunction P1702 TRS Sensor Intermittent Circuit Malfunction P1704 Digital TRS Failed to Transition State P1705 TR Sensor out of Self Test Range P1711 TFT Sensor Out of Self Test Range P1713 TFT Stuck in Range Low-Below? 50'F P1714 Shilt Solenoid A Inductive Signature Malfunction P1715 Shift Solenoid B Inductive Signature Malfunction P1718 TFT Stuck in Range High-Above? 25OF P1728 Transmission Slip Error P1729 4x4L Switch Error P1744 Torque Converter Clutch System Performance P1746 EPC Solenoid Open Circuit P1747 EPC Solenoid Short Circuit P1754 CCS (Solenoid) Circuit Malfunction P1760 EPC Solenoid Short Intermittent P1780 TCS Circuit Out of self Test Range P1781 4x4L Circuit Out of Self Test Range P1783 Transmission Overtemperature Condition

So tell me Pogo, if a turbo up-tube was broken and leaking exhaust, thus causing lack of boost at the turbo, thus not atomizing the air/fuel, take into account 3 dead injectors, a leaking ICPR with a faulty ICPS, along with a plugged converter due to someone driving it like that for several thousand miles under load, and what do you get? I guess suspension work, batteries, a dead starter from cranking the shit out of it, and teaching the customer how to break into his car 4 times is really insignificant, none the less, still time consuming.

I hope you enjoy your Ford Motor Company Interface. But dont assume that I am too lazy to research my shit.

As good as some.... Better than most.

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

I can't believe how fast and hard you walked into this...

First off... our shop doesn't own a a scan tool that does International engines. If we were to pay for the MD subscription, yes... But we have no need for it so we don't. As well, be careful of things you may assume - you haven't the foggiest idea of what I may or may not have.

Next... your PID values... What hat did you pull those out of? Aside from the confusing names you have given them... your ICP volts and ICP pressure readings are not in agreement and anyone with half a fucking idea would see that... You still haven't commanded your IPR duty cycle to change - simply because your scan tool can't.

FWIW, performing an injector buzz test has squat to do with active commands - something else that anyone with any knowledge would have known.

The funniest part is seeing someone look at sensor volts when the battery is obviously dead or dying.... Electrical testing when system volts is at 11.34???? WTF is that?

Pinouts... yep, we can pinout voltages.... no sweat... What web forum is going to help you with that? It doesn't appear that a shop manual or wiring diagram is in your future, so we have to assume that you will get this info from somewhere.

Why you felt the need to offer up your PID list - especially including all those gas engine PIDs - or why you felt the need to cut and paste on the DTCs.... (the DTC list being horribly out of date... no P0010? and a slew of others missing). And I notice that you are missing little helpers like TRAN_RAT (no, that's NOT a transvestite rodent) and GEAR_RAT.

But wait a minute... we haven't been told why ICP doesn't mean a whole bunch without knowing IPR... or how they even work together? Without understanding this, there is no understanding the system.

A broken up tube keeps the fuel from atomizing? That is one you might have to explain to me. But I see you have been doing some research.... post partum, it may be. The time to do that research is before we hose a customer - and the place to do it is not in an amateurs forum.

Even that little laundry list is going to have a tough time making it's way to 12Gs

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

I didnt figure you would have anything constructive to say. Just a bunch of sarcasam with no backing.

You are right, I should take out the listing of Codes and PID's and create a whole new thread for them, that way people can find them when they are looking.

I know for a fact your trying to come off like a nice guy by claiming my prices are high, when in reality you pork and roll customers 10X worse than us on a daily bassis. Get a clue!

I applaud your dedication to "Just" Ford trucks, however your constant bragging about equipment and information that dosent belong to you reminds me of a 16 year old kid driving his moms car around on a Friday night...... No clue.

Im done with you for awhile geezer.

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

IDS = Integrated Diagnostic System

At least that's what it says under the big IDS logo that pops up on the screen when you load the software.

disgruntled · Veteran Guest

SELLC wrote:

So tell me Pogo, if a turbo up-tube was broken and leaking exhaust, thus causing lack of boost at the turbo, thus not atomizing the air/fuel, take into account 3 dead injectors, a leaking ICPR with a faulty ICPS, along with a plugged converter due to someone driving it like that for several thousand miles under load, and what do you get? I guess suspension work, batteries, a dead starter from cranking the shit out of it, and teaching the customer how to break into his car 4 times is really insignificant, none the less, still time consuming.

Okay, turbo UP-PIPES are common to leak. I'll give you that, given that I have replaced more than my share of them myself. My guess would be it was cracked at the flex joint on the driver side bank of the pipe? True, this would cause a REDUCTION in boost pressure. However, on 2003 model year trucks (or early 2004 trucks with 2003 engines in them), EBP input is NOT what the PCM uses to set turbo boost if the truck in question has already had the Ford mandated 06E17 reflash that changes the strategy where it now uses "inferred" EBP. The point being, an exhaust leak between the manifolds and the turbo would have a much more adverse effect on turbo boost if it were on late-2004 to 2007 model year trucks. But I'm sure that since you're smarter than the rest of us, you probably knew that already.

And, how in the hell is the "air/fuel" going to atomize on a DIESEL engine? Last time I checked, the basics of how a diesel engine operates, AIR is sucked into the combustion chamber and then IGNITED by the fuel being INJECTED on the power stroke. On these newer electronically controlled diesel engines, there are a lot of factors that will cause the PCM to derate fuel delivery to prevent damage, if I'm not mistaken.

As for the three dead injectors, how did we arrive at that diagnosis? Is your scan tool capable of displaying a power balance graph with the ability to "kill" individual cylinders? How about relative compression?

As good as some.... Better than most.

That's what YOU would like to think.

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

Actually, BAT Auto has done a relatively mediocre job of posting DTC descriptions to the internet.... no need to repeat it... But it does bear repeating that using current, up to date repair info can be of great importance...

Rex.... I realize it must have been a tough decision to quit that cushy job as 'shop foreman' for that muffler chain (what a trauma that must have been) and go to where-ever it is that you went.... But you constantly evade questions.... "If you can't blind them with brilliance - baffle them with bullshit". And your best defence is a personal attack.... with male chauvanist overtones.

YOU needed to impress ME with some list of PIDs... nice... but what do they mean??? What are they telling you? Without that knowledge, well....

When it comes to working on late model Fords... I use an IDS. I have nearly 40 years invested in my career.... nearly 40 years invested in purchasing tools that make me more effective as a diagnostician.... "Does he have his own IDS... or not?".... They promised me that my first three OTC scan tools (back in the 80s) were the only scan tools I would ever need... and they promised me my MT2500 was all that we would need. I didn't buy a MoDis because the shop bought a Genysis (it's a long story and has to do with government mandated inspections by approved sations/technicians - something you wont understand).

We use the Genysis to it's capabilities on a daily basis.. but it falls far short of the capabilities of the IDS as well as the PDS (which, thank God, has reached the end of it's service life).

You continue to feel superior because you don't know fuck all about a lot of things.... and I am an object of scorn because, after all of these years, I am smart enough to know that specialized knowledge is worth more than its weight in gold.

Yes, MufflerMan, our door rate is high... very fucking high. But, our customers (notice I repeatedly use the term 'customer' rather than 'victim') deserve the best. In return for the big buck door rate, they get techs familiar with their car or truck. They get techs that have, at their fingertips, the latest and greatest documentaton available... they get techs that have advanced tools... with no need of time wasting work-arounds. The important thing to remember is how "big" the hours are. While an ill equipped shop is promising a low labour rate, the net result is more than likely a high repair tab as the unfamiliar, inexperienced tech furbles around public web sites loudly proclaiming "I have found the answer.. it was on the internet and it MUST be true!!!).

Our door rate is high, and we have never taken possession of a customers truck because he can't afford the repairs that our estimate clearly stated... The estimate he agreed to before we started work.... The estimate that outlined our repair strategy.

One of your big downfalls is that you are basing your assumptions on an idea that all techs are "like you". Lord knows that there are far too many Rexes working for dealers... there are far too many Rexes working for independants (including muffler shops) ... there are far too many Rexes in this trade (there may be far too many Ralphs, too... but they are so different from Rexes).

Sorry Rex... I do not bone my customers... most of my customers are also my friends.... they are in that circle that I move within... I can see these people on a daily basis and have no need for shame... They know me and trust my judgement... I have known many of these people for 30+ years.... I don't fuck around with their wallets.

Wow, I have this proclivity for digression.... Your door rate is low.... but your hours are "small". Lack of experience and familiarity.. the lack of adequate repair information, the abscence of formal training on the systems involved (the systems that don't work liike you think they do) drive your bill so much higher than what a customer would see at a "real" shop.

The problem isn't with whether it is a dealer shop or an indy shop.... the problem is and always has been with guys that are too full of themselves to see that you cannot do this "off the cuff".

So.... that leaves us with the lingering question.... Come time to pay the bill, I understand that you get the "KY HIS".... Do you insist that the customer brings the "KY HERS"? Do you include that in shop supplies? Or is it available as additional services for $49.95 plus taxes where applicable?

-- Edited by PogoPossum on Saturday 14th of March 2009 01:41:38 PM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

You guys claim that because were dealing with compression ignition that AIR is not needed to combust the fuel. LOL What kind of monkey farm did you guys come from? You dont think the PSD requires air, atomized with fuel to combust? You guys really are something!

I also find it hypicritical to chastize someone about getting infromation from a public internet venue, when you infact have done some public information digging on the internet yourself.

Like always you are found guilty of being book smart, having no REAL knowledge of who I am. The only muffler shop I ever worked at was MINE. My father on the other hand was the shop manager of a Midas once, and I helped them set up their computer systems when they first got going with their ROWriter software and Midas uplink.

Sure one time back when I was all of 18 or so I purchased a Custom Exhaust business from a good friend. After getting fucked on a complete restoration on an older Ford F-150 becuase I was young and didnt realize the importance of an attorney, I took a break and went to selling cars.

Once you are a mechanic you will be hard pressed to ever escape the business. No matter how hard you try, it will keep sucking you back in.

Most all my jobs are very BIG jobs. Complete tear downs, Restorations, Overhauls, Custom controls, you name it. Its also important to realize that we are working on mainly TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN models. In most cases the vehicles we work on crest the $80K price tag. Many of you work on pretty expensive vehicles so dont take offence. Im just stating that we have a very strong understanding of how engines and automobiles work. We may spend more time than a dealer getting the information however its likley we will do a better job, for less money. We can also do things that most dealers can-not. We have some restorations that can take many years, our custom engine overhauls start out at three months and thats IF every goes as planned.

Its RARE if not NEVER that we pork a customer for $1200 for a front CPR brake job. Its RARE if not NEVER that we pork a customer for +$100 per mechanical hour
The dealer on the other hand, well we might as well call them Porky the pig, because thats about all they do, replace parts, pork the customer and move to the next one. Ask a dealership to perform intricate repairs or aftermarket performance work and your likley to be sent to the "Independent" because dealership tech's dont know how to think outside the box.

When someone comes to see us, usually everyone else has either said it cant be done, or just cant do it.

Hey Pogo, can you tell us how the Bosch KE-Jetronic fuel system works? You know, the ones that put on Mercedes-Benz, Rolls Royce, Ferrari? You know, the one SOOOOOO smooth its now a illegal to produce them?

Hey Pogo, can you tell us what the 4 strokes are, in order, for a 4 stroke internal combustion engine?

Thanks in advance buddy!

-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 15th of March 2009 03:31:14 AM

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

I know this one!

SUCK-SQUEEZE-BANG-BLOW

PogoPossum · RIP - Veteran User

Rex... I said nothing about not needing air... However, it is the fuel injector that atomizes the fuel.... You can add all the air in the world and it will not alter that fact.

Rex... I think you'll have to add some citation to your claim that a system is so smooth it is illegal... More like it is too fucking dirty to be legal.

I have dabbled with the K-Jetronic very occasionally in the last decade or so - always after advising my customer that I neither have recent experience nor proper documentation - but I have a few minutes to take a brief look for anything obvious.

Other than that, all of my K-Jetronic experience was at a VW/Porsche/Audi dealer in the early 70s.... EARLY 70s. I do recall that the adjustment of the sensor plate in the mass air flow sensor was critical on those models that had it... The other style with the little trap door appeared on several Jap engines...

But, like I say... a long time ago and without recent experience and proper manuals, I wont roll the dice with my customers wallet.

As such, I never get the chance to tell a customer that I have a really overblown opinion of my knowledge and that I will gladly take his vehicle - and I mean that in every sense of the word.

I prefer to stick with what I know.... my experience and expertise allow me to repair these in a timely manner. My customer is happy (funny how I keep "hiding" behind HAPPY customers, yeah?) and I get to charge fair coin for my efforts.

You aren't the only shop to do "big" jobs... but some of your jobs just "get big" on their own... We saw that.... and so did your ex-customer...

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PogoPossum wrote:

Rex... I said nothing about not needing air... However, it is the fuel injector that atomizes the fuel.... You can add all the air in the world and it will not alter that fact.

Rex... I think you'll have to add some citation to your claim that a system is so smooth it is illegal... More like it is too fucking dirty to be legal.

Yes the fuel injector atomizes the fuel, however a turbo that is not spinning due to the lack of pressure, because its leaking out prior to the turbo, will effect the overal combustion, thus lacking the proper air/fuel ratio resulting in POOR atomization of the gas on the intake/compression stroke. Even moreso at higher RPM's. Lest we forget the turbo runs thru an intercooler, thus cooling the air charge. None of this has anything to do with the atomization of fuel huh? Thats just laughable!

I dont need to add any citation for people to know that luxury was placed higher on this vehicle than emissions standards. If you could not afford the gas, you sure as hell werent driving a Benz.

-- Edited by SELLC on Monday 16th of March 2009 02:41:00 AM

Date: 07:35 PM Mar 19, 2009

Yes the fuel injector atomizes the fuel, however a turbo that is not spinning due to the lack of pressure, because its leaking out prior to the turbo, will effect the overal combustion, thus lacking the proper air/fuel ratio resulting in POOR atomization of the gas on the intake/compression stroke. Even moreso at higher RPM's. Lest we forget the turbo runs thru an intercooler, thus cooling the air charge. None of this has anything to do with the atomization of fuel huh? Thats just laughable!

-- Edited by SELLC on Monday 16th of March 2009 02:41:00 AM

Rex yes fuel atomizes from the injector, but it also has a increased effect of proper atomization from the unique design of the diesel engines piston creating a upward rebound of the fuel to assist with the charge of air to properly mix with the air. Having leaks in the exhaust or intake system only creates problems that the complex computer system sees thru it's many sensors and does set trouble codes and check engine lights. Have you ever had a turbo failure and filled the CAC with oil and not flushed it out? You may have fixed the turbo failure but have created a new one. Once the engine warms up and builds sufficient boost it will heat the oil enough to help over fuel the engine and low and behold you will have a runaway on your hands, turning off the ignition won't help because once it's lit up it will keep going until it blows up or runs out of oil from the CAC. There are many things to keep in mind before claiming to know it all. If you do you will be called on it, as we are calling you out. I/we don't claim to know it all because we all realize that no one can. But we do have a very close nit community and try to help whenever possible because we do ask for help when needed. We also get a little irked when we see somebody that acts that way.

By the way....

Miss me yet biggrin

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Let me guess... Your name is Larry?

Yes that was a very good read... Could you please tell us what your term CAC stands for? For sake of being torn apart I will not even bother taking a wild guess.

Also I am having a very hard time relating with what you said-

Quote from whom we think is "Larry"
"Have you ever had a turbo failure and filled the CAC with oil and not flushed it out? You may have fixed the turbo failure but have created a new one. Once the engine warms up and builds sufficient boost it will heat the oil enough to help over fuel the engine and low and behold you will have a runaway on your hands, turning off the ignition won't help because once it's lit up it will keep going until it blows up or runs out of oil from the CAC."

Now I will admit I have never run into this problem. I assume you must have learned it the hard way, and as such I wouldnt mind a little further explanation.

Big Angry Hillbilly · User

Charge air cooler?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Charge Air Cooler huh? What no photo?

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Pop your hood Rex, you don't need a photo. It's that big radiator looking thing that the turbo and intake tubes run to.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Gee and to think you guys could have just called it an inner-cooler like everyone else.

So your telling me these things will fill up with oil when the turbo takes a shit? That really sucks ass. Ill be sure to keep that in mind.

You dont think people more times than not cause these problems with the aftermarket boost increasers such as the Banks, Bully Dog and Diablo systems? What do you guys do when you suspect such aftermarket things have been installed? What percentage of the time do you think these turbo mishaps are the cause of these aftermarket kits?

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

SELLC wrote:

Gee and to think you guys could have just called it an inner-cooler like everyone else.
An intercooler implies that it circulates coolant through it to dissipate heat. A charge air cooler has no coolant flowing in it.

So your telling me these things will fill up with oil when the turbo takes a shit? That really sucks ass. Ill be sure to keep that in mind.

You don't think people more times than not cause these problems with the aftermarket boost increases such as the Banks, Bully Dog and Diablo systems? What do you guys do when you suspect such aftermarket things have been installed? What percentage of the time do you think these turbo mishaps are the cause of these aftermarket kits?

Turbos have a much higher failure rate with aftermarket performance devices, but can fail on their own. We have methods to determine whether an aftermarket performance device was at one time installed, but we refrain from discussing those techniques to keep that knowledge out of the hands of people who would use such performance devices and possibly use such knowledge to fool us in to warrantying a repair that shouldn't be. Not that we make coverage decisions at the dealer level anyway, but it only takes a phone call to get a Ford rep in the door to make a decision.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:

An intercooler implies that it circulates coolant through it to dissipate heat. A charge air cooler has no coolant flowing in it.
I really hate to do this to you... But,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

An intercooler (original UK term, sometimes aftercooler in US practice), or charge air cooler, is an air-to-air or air-to-liquid heat exchange device used on turbocharged and supercharged (forced induction) internal combustion engines to improve their volumetric efficiency by increasing intake air charge density through isochoric cooling. A decrease in air intake temperature provides a denser intake charge to the engine and allows more air and fuel to be combusted per engine cycle, increasing the output of the engine.

Knowing that the PowerStroke Turbo Diesel is an Air to Air inter-cooler I will add a little salt to your wound,

Air-to-liquid intercoolers (aka Charge-Air-Coolers) are heat exchangers that transfer intake charge heat to an intermediate fluid, usually water, which finally rejects heat to the air. These systems use radiators in other locations, usually due to space constraints, to reject unwanted heat, similar to an automotive radiator cooling system. Air-to-liquid intercoolers are usually heavier than their air-to-air counterparts due to additional components making up the system (water circulation pump, radiator, fluid, and plumbing). The Toyota Celica GT-Four had this system in the 1988-89 version and also in the Carlos Sainz RC Version.
A big advantage of the air-to-liquid setup is the lower overall pipe and intercooler length, which offers faster response (lowers turbo lag)^{[citation needed]}, giving peak boost faster than most front-mount intercooler setups. Some setups can use reservoirs that can have ice put into it for intake temperatures lower than ambient air, giving a big advantage (but of course, ice would need constant replacement).
Ford had adopted the technology when they decided to use forced induction (via Supercharger) on their Mustang Cobra and Ford Lightning truck platforms. It uses a water/glycol mixture intercooler inside the intake manifold, just under the supercharger, and has a long heat exchanger front mounted, all powered by a Bosch pump made for Ford. Ford still uses this technology today with their Shelby GT500.

Have a nice day!

-- Edited by SELLC on Saturday 11th of April 2009 12:34:04 AM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:
We have methods to determine whether an aftermarket performance device was at one time installed, but we refrain from discussing those techniques to keep that knowledge out of the hands of people who would use such performance devices and possibly use such knowledge to fool us in to warrantying a repair that shouldn't be.

I would imagine "Over-Boost" codes would be one indication. I would also imagine there would be some form of signs with regards to the wiring that would have been needed to install one (Unless the idiot was dumb enough to leave it installed). I am sure there are a few more that your not letting on about, however I doubt you even know them.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

SELLC wrote:

I would imagine "Over-Boost" codes would be one indication. I would also imagine there would be some form of signs with regards to the wiring that would have been needed to install one (Unless the idiot was dumb enough to leave it installed). I am sure there are a few more that your not letting on about, however I doubt you even know them.

Usually modern devices can clear the codes they set before the customer brings them in for warranty work.

How exactly can someone intentionally "not let on" about something they don't even know about?

Unlike you Rex, I don't spend my days thinking up ways to impress people by baffling them with bullshit.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:

Usually modern devices can clear the codes they set before the customer brings them in for warranty work.

How exactly can someone intentionally "not let on" about something they don't even know about?

Unlike you Rex, I don't spend my days thinking up ways to impress people by baffling them with bullshit.

I didnt say you intentionally held back info, just that you didnt know.

Are you baffled with the CAC being known by the rest of the world as a liquid to air cooler? Are you impressed? If dont like the smell of the bulls shit, then I suggest not playing in it. You know Pogo and BAH like to play in the mud with the pigs. I must admit that I enjoy throwing mud as much as the next guy but I know that throwing mud usually means the person throwing it usually gets muddy first.

P.S. Do you think you could prune your responces when quoting people? Its easy enough to delete all them un-needed blank text lines, unless of course your trying to hide that little mis-hap above! LOL

-- Edited by SELLC on Saturday 11th of April 2009 07:13:07 PM