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Post Info TOPIC: Repair of front vacuum locking hubs with manual locks. WARN? OEM FORD?


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Repair of front vacuum locking hubs with manual locks. WARN? OEM FORD?


Well now that I dont have to worry about bald tires, I think when I lift this truck I am going to tackle the woes of the vacuum front locking hubs, ball joints and the lift. This should bring the truck back up to specs less the exhaust work that is needed due being drug out sideways thru 500 Ft of mud with a Semi Wrecker.

I plan on tackling this crap in about 2-3 weeks once I am caught up on my other jobs here. I literally have 6 engines overhauls with two of them being installed. The two that require install have already been overhauled and ready to go. The other 4 are on the downward slope.

During this time I was hoping someone could tell me if there are WARN locking hubs to replace the factory design that is very frail and prone to breaking in sub zero weather. I had WARN hubs on a 1994 351 F150 and they were always a pleasure to engage and disengage. The knob seems to be made much better than that of the factories flimsy hollowed out mold.

In pondering these things I am wondering if anyone might have some links or information about these WARN hubs on these later model vacuum controlled suckers. I like the idea of having 4X4 on the flick of the switch, yet I also like the assurance that when the shit starts getting thick I can manually lock em' up. 

What do you guys think about the WARN locking hubs? Think I can save a bunch of money just rebuilding it back to stock? 

I have at LEAST 3 more weeks before I can even dig in, but any info or opinions are welcome. 



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The vacuum ESOF hubs are EASILY among the most misunderstood devices on these trucks.

The two greatest enemies that the pulsed vacuum hublocks have are (a) lack of proper service... and (b) the manual locking knobs are never "exercised" enough.

Many owners cut straight to the Warn manual hubs..... Of course, this negates the automatic lock option and most owners feel real good about this for the first while.... until they realize that, with lack of "exercise", the Warn hiubs will also sieze solid.

As I had mentioned in another post a long time ago and in another thread, it is important that one UNDERSTANDS this system if you want to service it wisely.... Easy to see that you have not taken this advice seriously and there are a few folks that will be more than happy to tell you "someone told you so"....

The PVH system is good and it works and it is convenient - but every time "they" make something idiot proof - someone just makes better idiots.

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Lack of proper service and or lack of use? You got to be fucking kidding me right Pogo?

Lets talk about "Proper Service" why dont we...

Sealed ball joints? Gee whats to service there, gone are the zert fittings to keep them around another 60K.

What about them front hubs too? The build quality on the WARN is far superior... Much more meat and better design for the locks. Not only that, they SEAL BETTER.

But yeah, you are right Pogo, just as Ford Motor Company has engineered I will most likely REPLACE the non-serviceable items that are worn. Only this time I will do it BETTER than Fords, with TRW Serviceable HD ball joints, I may even find aftermarket bits to complement the current system to save the cost of the pricey WARN hubs, however Ill be keeping my eye out for a reasonable priced USED set. It will come down to COST and VALUE, just like I would for my customers.

So tell me, outside of the pump, what is so great about the Ford's set up? How about them BULL SHIT sealed front hubs?

Sure its good for business, front hubs and suspension parts on these trucks are considered gravy work. Only problem is its my truck, and the owner of my truck is a real tight wad. No offence... None taken... confuse

Anyway, given the price of these trucks, $60,000 plus, I would expect certian "Wearable things" to be of a servicable standard to which one would be keeping it for a long time. Isnt that the point of a diesel anyway? 

I can see throw away cars like the escort, and focus having these sealed units, however I see no reason what-so-ever that a high dollar Ford truck be fitted with sealed ball joints, wheel bearings, tie rod ends, or even u-joints. 

Do you dis-agree with me? 



-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 5th of July 2009 01:50:26 AM

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Disagree? You'd have to come with something that makes sense, first.

Like I mentioned (what the fuck are you babbling about ball joints for), ESOF is vastly misunderstood.... and you are totally avoiding this idea.... and it is going to prove that this can be an expensive oversight.

Our area features mud... wonderful red clay mud - being the oil patch and a logging area, most of our customers spend time in the mud. If you don't want to learn from a voice of experience, fine by me... calling it bullshit is doing your readers a dis-service.

Anyway, we recommend a spindle service at 30,000 kms.... yes, we make money doing it. Yes, our customers save money, in the long run, by having it done.

Once again, you are proving that you will eventually take another truck or car from an unwary fool because you aren't aware of what you DON'T know.

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Typical... More lies, followed by a claim of superiority, without any backing whatsoever.

no

Sometimes I think you really take too far your assumptions. Making claims that I dont understand the system, even when I have explained to you the faults really fugging pisses me off.

Dont run your fingers in here about how good you are. just effing show us.

I would love nothing more than to go head to head with you on a vehicle repair. One that required you to rely on skill, rather than your dealers toys. Not that dealer toys arent wondeful, just that they really over-infate ones self percived skill level.

I am sure that once I tear into the front suspension and write it all up, you will follow with insignificant details, still claiming I dont understand the system, even though its not only FIXED, but modified to exceed the many known weakness built into it. Then of course you will just add some more insult and call it a day, as usual.



-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 5th of July 2009 07:15:26 PM

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All I can say is that I have given you some advice... the advice I have given you is borne of my familiarity with this system....

You can either follow up on my advice (and this might pleasantly surprise you)..... or you can just treat me as an inferior... hell, us dealer techs are far too smart for our own britches....

You fucking blow me away with your attitude.... I am wrong because of who I am....

Fine by me - my customers have trucks that work - and my bills have never been so big that I've had to take possession of the truck....

One last time... ESOF is misunderstood by even some dealer techs.... this is after they have read the "description and operation" section in the WSM....

You are assuming that you are an expert and that anecdotal advice from owners is the "best" way to go...

Would it hurt you, for just a few minutes, to climb down off that high horse that you are riding pell-mell into oblivion and use a little reason? You would surprise yourself... 

All the same... you do what you do.... and I'm doing alright where I am.....

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Sure I will be spending some time next week with the research; however what I have said about the "Poor Quality" of the engagement hub locks still stands true. They are made of FAR TOO THIN material. Many serviceable parts on both light and super duty trucks have been made non-serviceable.

My 4X4 system was not one of occasional use. Sure it did sit locked up for damn near 4 months, however I doubt that caused the problems and it was indoors.

I will research this term ESOF you have given me Pogo. In the mean time look at this photo. Tell me that isnt a poor design, to crumble like that out in the icy thickets. I was so pissed off I wasnt even cold no more!

One more thing Pogo... Earlier you said something about servicing the front spindles every 30,000 miles.... Thats funny you should say "Service" when infact what you plan to do is "Replace". The days of old where the spindle had "Serviceable" bearings that could be "Re-Packed" are no more. The term "Service" really means "Replacement". Nice to know one of these newer "Sealed" front hub assemblies cost $300+ each. Compared to what used to be a bearing re-pack.

The logic behind the sealed wheel bearing is that it has less rolling resistance. Truth be known this is really a bunch of bullshit.

What does this have to do with my hubs? Well I dont enjoy taking the tires off any more than I have to. And trust me, worn ball joints and suspension components take their toll on the entire system. Could it have been prevented? Yes it could, by provisioning them with the proper service fittings and getting away from nylon bushed sealed units.

Everyone else is following suit.

Had everything else been serviceable as listed above, all I would have to do right now is take apart the locking hubs, install a new seal, buy a new plastic engagement wheel, and repack the bearings. DONE.. Two parts and two hours.

Is it coming into focus yet Pogo?

 



-- Edited by SELLC on Monday 6th of July 2009 01:16:33 AM

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Some time ago, you told me that your documentation was second to none... that your knowledge was second to none...

Yet, once again, you need to research something you should have already known... after all, you came across as the SuperDuty expert...

ESOF.... Electronic Shift On the Fly.... Been around for a long, long time....

I maintain the concept of "SERVICE" the front spindles.. Does it involve the idea of replace? That depends if you want shit to be good or not... I'm going to replace seals.... after all, they've been wallowing around in the mud.... after all, they are considered a <sacrificial> part.... hmmm something else for you to research...

I'm going to replace any other parts that exhibit wear or contamination.... But, for you to assume that I am just going to replace "stuff".... my customers still own their trucks... Yes - we keep coming back to that... we keep coming back to begging for info on user forms....

The concept behind not sealed wheel bearing... consider them as unit bearings has fuck all to do with rolling resistance.... they are fucking ball bearings.... these (as well as tapered roller bearings) are "anti friction bearings.... it's about as good as you are going to get... The concept is ease of assembly line operations... reduction of warranty repair costs... It has fuck all to do with some misbegotten idea of "rolls eaier".

I'm still having trouble with the rest of your drivel... You (the guy having trouble) is asking me (the guy with happy customers) if I am seeing the light of day.....

Are you one of a set of twins, by any chance?


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I just love how you always try and pussy foot around the facts. Ask anyone holding a repair bill for the replacement of "Sealed" front hub assembilies what they think of your BS above.

You wont see the light of day because you dont own a newer Ford truck, let alone a diesel. You wont have to deal with having the out of pocket repairs because you lack the truck. This is where all your jealousy comes in. You have already told us that your truck is old, and only washed a few times a year. You take no pride in your own vehicle, how can you be trusted to take pride with a customers truck? 

When you try to tell people that a sealed front hub assy. is better than than a traditonal bearing that can be re-packed/re-used, it becomes quite clear your wrong. Hell just a few post ago you were trying to tell us that the front end of a newer Ford superduty had servicable wheel bearings, now your changing your tune.

I know your having trouble understanding what I say. Its because you lack the ability to think on your own. Your a spoon fed tech.


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PogoPossum wrote:

Anyway, we recommend a spindle service at 30,000 kms.... yes, we make money doing it. Yes, our customers save money, in the long run, by having it done.


I am going to bust your little Ford Dealer tech bubble right now Pogo...

So you are telling us your dealership sells front spindle services every 30,000 kms on 1999- Up Ford Super Duty trucks?

Can you PLEASE tell us how much this "Service" cost, and exactly "What" you plan to service that would prevent the wheel bearings, ball joints or anything else from going bad, let alone merit the cost of such "Service". Did you mean to say "Inspection/Replacement", because I was speaking about REAL "SERVICE"? You know the kind where the TECH makes a few hours re-lubricating the moving parts, while the customer saved on buying new parts?

You might think that since I am a mechanic whom makes a living fixing cars that I should not be bitching, but truth be known there really is no money in the "Replacement" of parts. The cost of said replacement parts goes to the manufacture, be it Ford or Aftermarket. There are still labor cost involved weather you "Service" or "Replace", the only difference is that some poor customers may loose their truck due to cost of all these "REPLACEMENT" parts. That money for the parts that were designed to fail after the warranty period, and prevent people from "Servicing" them is what Ford's had in mind. 

You best quit acting like the cost of "Replacement" parts isnt what drives the cost up on these trucks, and that the manufactures know damn well this will encourage or stimulate new vehicle sales. Customers dont loose their trucks because of labor charges, they loose them because of OVER PRICED, NON-SERVICABLE PARTS COST, which either go to the manufacture or the aftermarket. NOT ME.

So man up cocksucker! 

Do you need some more examples you DAFT OLD MAN?

Wheel Bearings - Old way, $8 to $20 each - Now $300+ and non-serviceable
Universal Joints - Old way, $8 to $20 each - Now called CV Joints $200+ Non-Serviceable
Ball joints/Suspension Parts - Moving parts greaseable - Now are sealed units and non-serviceable/greaseable
Transmissions - Old way $40 to service w/filter - Now your lucky to even be able to check the fluid level let alone change the fluid and filter.

And thats just the tip of the ice-burg. Lets talk about all this BS that brought about the application of modern fuel injection, computer controls all cast upon the public as "Green" or "Energy/Fuel efficient". The likes of proprietary engine management systems ensures there are more parts to fail, and more conditions to exist for failure. Im not saying that advanced fuel injection or electronics are bad, just that if everyone kept there 1st vehicle instead of buying new ones and crushing their old ones, we wouldnt have all this pollution today, regardless of how in-efficient the cars of old were. Just think of all the pollution in making these new plastic interiors, electronic components, only to throw them out and buy new models that they will eventually crush, melt and pollute in an effort to make more.... And for what you ask?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

No I get it Pogo You just keep reading and running in that hamster cage. Meanwhile I will do the same, but at least I have the ability to apply that knowledge.




-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 22nd of July 2009 06:21:51 AM

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PogoPossum wrote:

The concept behind not sealed wheel bearing... consider them as unit bearings has fuck all to do with rolling resistance.... they are fucking ball bearings.... these (as well as tapered roller bearings) are "anti friction bearings.... it's about as good as you are going to get... The concept is ease of assembly line operations... reduction of warranty repair costs... It has fuck all to do with some misbegotten idea of "rolls eaier".

I'm still having trouble with the rest of your drivel... You (the guy having trouble) is asking me (the guy with happy customers) if I am seeing the light of day.....


I know you are having problems Pogo... You still just dont get it.

You said "The concept is ease of assemble line operations... Reduction of warranty repair cost"

So I guess this means fuck the customer after the warranty huh?! We have to keep making money, so we will make the parts non-serviceable and that will help ensure revenues for parts rather than allowing the ability to Service them aka cut out the need for parts.

I make my money off the Labor hour... Not the parts. I hate having to tell customers they need to buy new parts on top of labor cost. In working with Mercedes I know first hand that excessive parts cost is what makes people buy new cars rather than fix the old one. They arent stupid; they know its just a matter of time before the next batch of serviceable parts takes a shit like clock-works.


Its one thing to purchase seals and other low cost "Sacrificial" parts to service/repair a vehicle. Its another to start installing non-serviceable parts to the tune of $300+ a crack, especially since there are well over 40 known parts on these trucks that fit into this category from the injector, wheel bearings or sensors, right down to the $120 door switches that have been designed to be non-serviceable to fatten the pockets of Fords after the car payments stop rolling in.


 

 



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Well I must admit.... I got my moneys worth out of them worn front end parts tonight buddy! I really needed that too because I was getting pretty up tight in here.

LOL biggrin

Now when I install them new front end parts I can feel like I got some use out of them!

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What will get serviced?

Wow... you certainly hvae a real grasp on the system...

Think C6TZ-3123-A on your truck... this little bearing can eat a $300 stub shaft for breakfast... But it don't matter to me... It's your truck and your wallet...

Like I keep telling you.... it ain't you I need to impress.... I'm offering you some free info and you want to act ignorant.... I'm trying to save you the grief of finding out about this system the hard way (let's say you are in the soup hole you are trying to impress your wife with. Flip the ESOF switch to 4HI and vacuum is applied to the front hubs.... the front hubs that are buried in mud.... the front hubs that are buried in mud that the vacuum is drawing into the hub cavity past the worn seals...

Ohhhh, my bad... you're the expert and know all there is to now about "this ESOF stuff".

Do you have any idea of the exposure you are giving yourself with that attitude? Have fun with it...

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What exposure?

Its a web forum, people are supposed to have fun. Where else could you go and spew your venom without being botherd for having your own opinion outside the intrest of the forum?

I opend this forum because I got tired of getting censored at other places. I wanted to offer something to the forum go'ers that I never had. Here you can just about say whatever is on your mind, and not get banned. And if someones feelings are hurt, they dont have to return.

I must admit the Powerstroke mob was alot like stirring up a hornets nest.

I'm not looking for any help on any paticular system, but its nice to know that if I ever did need help, you guys would more than willing to feed me crow to get it.

So if by exposure you mean me having a good time once in awhile with the truck, then perhaps you should just realize that the 6.0 was intended to be a "Sports" truck, and that anyone whom claims to have gone off-roading and not broken nothing, hasnt really been off-roading.

Yeah my truck will prolly have some dents for a few months till I got time to spruce her back up. She has been down and out much worse than this and I have brought her back. She'll be back!

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"My venom"...

The motoring public holds a dim view of tis trade in general... Why? Because there are those that profess to practice this vocation when all they really do is furble around - their only blessing is their handy dandy $49.95 tool kit and the belief that they actually know stuff....

No training.... no idea of cause and effect... couldn't describe a proper volt drop test to save their lives...

They may, in addition, have a penchant for "exaggeration" in regards to resources.... A little like someone bragging about his rear seal tool and then not recognizing a picture of one....

A guy could overlook a lot of things.... but, if you aren't honest.... if you don't display integrity... what is left?

You would make a fine politician.... you have the ability to ignore the pressing questions and even have the balls to attempt diversion as a viable tactic...

I haven't revealed much about myself... other than I make a healthy living because I actually do seem to have some talents... My employer keeps me because we seem to have happy customers (ones that we don't tell to fuck off after we get what money they have)... My customers like me because I fix trucks and answer questions....

Yet you keep telling me I am a failure????

Our big problem in this trade today..... is "pretenders". Those that state they know what they are doing..... yet fail miserably when it comes time to produce...

Remember... YOU are the guy approaching DIYers to solve your issues... You are the guy trying to disguise a help request as a poll....

One of the biggest concerns with this trade is the charlatans.... you have a tool box.... you have a LITTLE knowledge and you have a big ego.... This is a dangerous combination.

I have tried to offer you advice and you call me down for it.... I'm not about to hand you my knowledge on a plate for free... you will need to work at least a bit for it... Yet you have the balls to think you know....... what?

Just to keep the record straight... please don't think you have my panties in a knot.... I'm far too objective for that - so, if some of your replies are geared at getting the old guy "worked up" - forget it... Ain't gonna happen

However, I do feel a certain amount of pity for your closed mind... and your unfounded attitude. I feel incensed that you can practice as a trained tech when in fact there is no "trained".

It is people like you that makes the US "grate"...

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Your insistence that I approached do-it yourselfers for anything but an audience is pure flatulence. May I remind you that I purchased many sources of online information from All Data and Mitchells that include most ALL of your technical service bulletins and in many cases the information is directly from Fords also?

Are you aware that Fords knows damn well there is no way they could service efficiently ALL of the vehicles they have and will produce? Fords wants mechanics having access to their information so that a quality repair can be made. Information will not change the cost of labor charges, nor will this "Information" save a customer from having to purchase replacement parts, parts that I insist were designed to fail and prevent "Service" more than they were designed to be serviced and to last.

Get a hold of yourself Pogo... Its starting to get old and boring, then again, that just may be your style.



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The difference is though, is the shop manual that the dealer has is WAY WAY better than the Alldata or mitchell stuff that the general shops get.

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REX DIDN'T BUY SHIT!!!! ALL HE DOES IS DOWNLOADS BOOTLEG COPIES AND MAKES SHIT CD'S WHICH HE SELLS ON EBAY!!!!!!!!!! FAAAAAAAAAAAAG!!!!!

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stoma wrote:

REX DIDN'T BUY SHIT!!!! ALL HE DOES IS DOWNLOADS BOOTLEG COPIES AND MAKES SHIT CD'S WHICH HE SELLS ON EBAY!!!!!!!!!! FAAAAAAAAAAAAG!!!!!



You are right, Rex doesnt buy "Shit" Stoma. Given your gehy nature I'm sure you spend big money for da "Shit" hole.

For your information I have MANY service manuals, and the CD's that I sell are either MY OWN PHOTOS and information, or that offered courtesy of Mercedes-Benz.

Stoma you should tread lightly in here. I have already deleted a few dozen of your worthless post. I do purchase manuals and subscriptions to various different professional auto manuals. If you keep lying and telling people we dont, it will be a 30 day ban just like Larry. Consider that youre warning.



 



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STEER CLEAR AWAY FROM SELLC WHEN IT COMES TO REPAIRS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!! SAVE YOUR MONEY AND HEARTACHE OF KNOWING YOUR CAR OR TRUCK WAS VIOLATED BY REX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I guess Stoma needs a vacation.

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