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Post Info TOPIC: Why the new tariffs on China aren't enough and why the Government is clueless about it..
SELLC


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Why the new tariffs on China aren't enough and why the Government is clueless about it..
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Recently after stalled negotiations with China President Trump has ordered that tariffs increase on $200 billion of their exports. The line of thinking here is that with enough tariffs that soon Chinese products will become inline with others made locally here in the USA... the problem with this dangerous thinking is totally oblivious to politicians and reality TV stars alike. The very critical underlying issue seems to go right over the heads of ALL politicians!

The problem with China is it's communist party that can work it's 1 billion plus workforce at a loss, something that America could NEVER do unless brought to all out world war! The idea that tariffs on China's goods will fix the problem and somehow encourage domestic manufacturing is a total JOKE! Unlike Politics the business world has the memory of an elephant, it never forgets! No business is going to invest the money to start manufacturing in the USA when they know that subsdized cheap Chinise product sits just down at the docks awaiting the day that the tarrifs are reversed. On literally a whim of the President sits almost certain bankruptcy for any company that manufactures in the USA should the tariffs be reversed - and in many cases America has lost so much of it's industry that there really aren't any alternatives to subsidized and cheap Chinese goods unless you count importing the stuff thru off-shoots of China or other neighboring countries! And that is exactly what is being done here! China is figuring out ways to sell their cheap stuff to Thailand, Tiawan, and many other Asian neighbors and bypassing the tariffs slowly but surely.

The only REAL way to deal with China is a straight up embargo, also known as a banning! This is the ONLY real solution to a country like China who will methodically work their people at a loss for the sole purpose of positioning itself as the worlds supplier for anything and everything under the sun. This is exactly what China has in mind and it's belt and road initiative only seeks to expand this to a global level. China is well aware that soon there will be no other option because the staggering cost differences between what it cost to design and create something is much greater than what it takes for them to copy and sell it for a mere fraction of the cost. And that is exactly what China does! They never bring anything to the market, they always wait to copy it. Innovation is not at the top of the list for China, although you can be sure if ever the day did come where they were, they would be fighting hard to keep their IP secret and they would not allow us to copy and undercut them as they have been doing to us for decades! That is the painful truth here! China is not going to give up its world domination aspirations and they have a tight grip on their people and the information they have access to. 

I really do believe that China is trying to wait out the Trump Presidency, and they hope that come 2020 that someone weak on trade will open the flood-gates on their cheap imports and IP theft to drown out any domestic manufacturing that has taken root while the tariffs were in effect. The problem with China is, while they would rather not wait out another term under Trump - they are prepared to wait out another 6 years or 100 years because their end goal is not going to change under their communistic empire. That being the case, the only way to resolve this serious global problem is to BAN everything out of China, let them sink with all their stolen copies with no market to sell them! When China looses its biggest customer the people of China will have but two choices - uprise against their communist government or go the way of the North Korean people and eat grass while they slave to support their communist government. Unfortunately that is the bottom line here, there can be no reasoning with China... Tariffs will not work as they will just find other ways to deliver their products by way of proxy, in the meantime they will just store these surpluses of goods until someone comes along and allows them to flood back into the USA wiping out any manufacturing that has taken root. 

So I ask you, "What business is going to invest in manufacturing when they know it's just a matter of time before the government reaches a deal and they are no longer able to compete with Chinese IP theft and subsidized labor?" The answer is NONE! The only force strong enough to swing that pendulum the other way would be an outright BAN on Chinese goods whereas there was no unfair competition! It would also SINK China almost immediately because as I have mentioned, a lot of the Chinese products with tariffs have no other domestic option - we just have no choice but to still buy the Chinese goods at higher rates (due to the tariffs) because there is no current domestic alternative! So in many ways, Trumps recent tariff hike will do nothing but increase cost to the American consumer and that is not going to help do anything but maintain the status quo. If Chinas products were BANNED from the USA then and only then would you see strong and concentrated efforts by companies to bring back manufacturing to the USA and end our reliance on communist China's exploitation of its people.

It is really sad that I am having to make this post, but we are wasting time with China... The Democrats have already wasted two years of Trumps tenure, there is no need to waste any more! BAN IT ALL!

The sick part is that many companies that buy Chinese goods have been working hard the past two years to import as much of this stuff as possible - awaiting the time that tariffs make their products more valuable.. I'd imagine warehouses all over are absolutely PACKED.



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Shawnee_B


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China been fuking us since we been born. Then come crook politicians that fuk us again, double. Buy American,American Made, period.

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Wow, something we actually agree on!

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SELLC


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I'd like to think the Government isn't clueless, and that at least Trump Republicans and the Blue Dog's have known this for a long time! I'd like to think this process is a "slow-turkey" approach to cutting off China without serious and abrupt "cold-turkey" effects...

Then along comes people like AOC, Talib and Omar with their efforts to divide within and it's like, OMG the invasion is coming from all sides! I can think of a lot of down-trodden periods of my life where not a whole lot was going for me but the fact I was natural born always had me feeling like regardless of what happened I was part of something special - I was home! Then I think about immigrants who will also find themselves overwhelmed at times, knowing they are not at home and angry at the world. When push comes to shove, what do they have to lose? This is a very dangerous element to allow in any community here in the USA, which is why illegal immigration has such devastating effects! Legal immigrants, visa holders and naturalized citizens at least have enough skin in the game to know what they are a part of but for people not natural born the home-stings will always pull hard and that is a FACT. Depending on if them home-strings are an enemy or an ally at the time is a big factor in determining risk, and since terrorist are indiscriminate of Republicans, Democrats or anything in-between it's a bi-partisan fact that TRUE ride or die Americans need to lean how to circle the wagons regardless of race, religion or birthplace. That mean if you don't intend to leave it better than you found it, then you probably shouldn't be here.

I'll say it again, in many cases there are no alternatives to the cheap Chinese goods that pour into our country. If we don't cut them out sooner or later no one is going to take the intuitive to fill the void. How could they? If all of a sudden Walmart could not buy brooms from China what do you think they would do? Get them from Thailand, India, Vietnam or Tiawan? Probably... But in the meantime a local company might come along and be able to make them brooms for a little more, but display that MADE IN THE USA sticker! I know that I paid $10 more for a cooler that had a Made in the USA sticker on it last time I was at Walmart getting camping supplies in the middle of the night. What is China going to do with a billion cheap dollar store brooms once we ban them? I'd like to think they could go and stick them up their collective asses however it would probably play out with China selling them to Thailand, India, Vietnam or Tiawan for resale to the USA to avoid the tariffs... This is where it gets complicated and will require far more collective teamwork than the left or the right currently have! AND THAT IS THE SCARY PART!



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PowerStroker


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SELLC wrote:

I'd like to think the Government isn't clueless, and that at least Trump Republicans and the Blue Dog's have known this for a long time! 

Wrong Democrats, we have had a bit of a tiff within our party about trade issues, and it is the progressive/liberal democrats that want the protectionist policies and were against NAFTA etc from the beginning. The Blue Dogs and DLC wings of the party were generally in favor of free trade.

It's probably the only issue I can think of in which Trump and we liberals agree.



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Nuffan


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PowerStroker wrote:
SELLC wrote:

I'd like to think the Government isn't clueless, and that at least Trump Republicans and the Blue Dog's have known this for a long time! 

Wrong Democrats, we have had a bit of a tiff within our party about trade issues, and it is the progressive/liberal democrats that want the protectionist policies and were against NAFTA etc from the beginning. The Blue Dogs and DLC wings of the party were generally in favor of free trade.

It's probably the only issue I can think of in which Trump and we liberals agree.

 

 

 

The issue is not FREE TRADE...

 

The issue is BALANCED TRADE...

 

When trade is balanced the course is FREE TRADE...

 

unfortunately we have not had balanced trade...

 

tariffs are needed to balance the trade...and they work and have for decades....

 

other countries place huge tariffs on American goods...but no one want to speak to that...

 

China has run nearly half a trillion dollars annually in trade deficits with the US for decades now...

 

THAT is a problem and it has to be addressed...and it is FINALLY getting addressed...

 

China now has a booming economy thanks in large part to the USA...

 

You want to think being communist they can absorb the tariffs....THEY CAN NOT...tariffs on Chinese goods are bad for the over all economy in China and they know it...

 

This is why they agreed to buy rice from the USA...they know to keep their products heading out of the country they have to start buying more from the USA... 

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Nuffan on Tuesday 14th of May 2019 10:05:05 AM

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SELLC


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SELLC wrote:

I'd like to think the Government isn't clueless, and that at least Trump Republicans and the Blue Dog's have known this for a long time! I'd like to think this process is a "slow-turkey" approach to cutting off China without serious and abrupt "cold-turkey" effects...

I'll say it again, in many cases there are no alternatives to the cheap Chinese goods that pour into our country. If we don't cut them out sooner or later no one is going to take the intuitive to fill the void. How could they? If all of a sudden Walmart could not buy brooms from China what do you think they would do? Get them from Thailand, India, Vietnam or Tiawan? Probably... But in the meantime a local company might come along and be able to make them brooms for a little more, but display that MADE IN THE USA sticker! I know that I paid $10 more for a cooler that had a Made in the USA sticker on it last time I was at Walmart getting camping supplies in the middle of the night. What is China going to do with a billion cheap dollar store brooms once we ban them? I'd like to think they could go and stick them up their collective asses however it would probably play out with China selling them to Thailand, India, Vietnam or Tiawan for resale to the USA to avoid the tariffs... This is where it gets complicated and will require far more collective teamwork than the left or the right currently have! AND THAT IS THE SCARY PART!

 

Looks like people might be paying attention!

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/vietnam-crackdown-chinese-goods-relabelled-054821883.html

HANOI (Reuters) - Vietnam has said it will crack down on goods of Chinese origin illegally relabeled "Made in Vietnam" by exporters seeking to avoid U.S. President Donald Trump's tariffs on Chinese imports.

Vietnamese customs have found scores of such cases amid the ongoing U.S.-China trade dispute, the department said in a statement posted to a government website on Sunday.

"The faking of origin and the illegal transhipment of goods happens most often in the sectors of textiles, seafood, agricultural products, tiles, honey, steel and iron, aluminium and timber products," the department said in the statement.

Some importers had been illegally re-packing goods from China in "Made in Vietnam" packaging and then applying for a Vietnamese certificate of origin with which to export to the United States, Europe and Japan, Vietnam customs said.



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Confirmed: American businesses and consumers are paying 'approximately 100%' of Trump tariff costs

Adriana BelmonteAssociate Editor    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-tariffs-cost-consumers-163409804.html

President Trump made over 100 claims about China and tariffs in 2019, stating that Beijing was paying tremendous amounts of tariffs. However, new research from the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) found the opposite. 

U.S. tariffs continue to be almost entirely borne by U.S. firms and consumers, the NBER working paper stated. Similarly, we also find that the substantial redirection of trade in response to the 2018 tariffs has accelerated.

The Trump administration has placed tariffs on $550 billion worth of imports from China, and China has slapped tariffs on $185 billion worth of imports from the U.S. since the trade war between the two countries began in March 2018.

On August 3, 2019, Trump claimed that our consumer is paying nothing in regard to the tariffs, but NBER stated that approximately 100% of these import taxes have been passed on to U.S. importers and consumers.

American consumers and businesses paid at least $42 billion for the tariffs as of October 2019, according to an analysis from Tariffs Hurt the Heartland (THH). In October 2019, the trade war cost an additional $7.2 billion through tariffs, an $1 billion increase from October 2018. 

Bad news for workers hoping that steel tariffs will bring back jobs

Trump has made several inaccurate claims about the tariffs on China: hes said that the U.S. is taking in billions from China, that the money is being passed along to American farmers bearing the brunt of the retaliatory tariffs, and that the tariffs would boost blue-collar jobs in the U.S.

A recent study from the Federal Reserve indicated that the tariffs have actually led to a loss of jobs, especially in manufacturing. 

While the longer-term effects of the tariffs may differ from those that we estimate here, the results indicate that the tariffs, thus far, have not led to increased activity in the U.S. manufacturing sector, the Fed study stated.

Steel is one of the industries hit hardest by tariffs, with foreign firms preemptively lowering prices and American firms struggling to compete with the market reaction. Detroit-based company U.S. Steel was forced to lay off 1,545 employees back in December 2019, partially due to struggles from Trumps steel tariffs. 

The data show that U.S. tariffs have caused foreign exporters of steel to substantially lower their prices into the U.S. market, NBERs paper stated. Thus, foreign countries are bearing close to half the cost of the steel tariffs. Since China is only the 10th-largest steel supplier to the U.S. market, these costs have been largely borne by regions like the EU, South Korea, and Japan.



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SELLC


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You don't have to tell me... I was the one who has said an outright BAN of items from China was the only way to ensure a fair deal!

As someone who does the purchasing of automotive parts for resale I can tell you things have been fucked up! Not just from tariffs or inflation, but from perception! This is the worse because then we have price swings on the front and back end where the end user is given the shaft! At times it is just crazy the shit I have to do in order to keep customers parts totals in-line! Ordering in online is a crap shoot, and it's usually one where I am left holding the bag if and when something goes wrong... ordering local means steep prices and the same garbage I buy offline is the same stuff they sell to me at an inflated price! Only one constant to ALL of this, and that is the fact that in every case the problem is with a cheaply made part from China! 

I'll say it again, I have noticed that parts from China are being designed to be made at the absolute cheapest costs and the quality shows! Get lots of stuff that is bad right out of the box! Any manufacture here in the USA would never get away with this! They would be sued out of business! Yet China gets away with it because our courts have no jurisdiction in China! That is why they get away with IP infringements, because they use China as a fence for our legal system.

And yet the stock market keeps climbing...  confuse



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