Lithium Ion replacement batteries for cars & motorcycles... - Auto-Trend Repairs and Service Information Forums

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Lithium Ion replacement batteries for cars & motorcycles...

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo folks,

Some back-story is needed here, but I'll keep it quick, & in point-form where possible...

* I bought a GSXR-1300 a few years ago, & it came with a "sus" battery, so I thought I'd need to change-it-out ASAP, (as soon as I got home), & after traveling across the country to get home lol ! This battery ended-up lasting around 9-months after purchase, but it had a second or two pause once the starter was engaged, & then whoosh, off-the-engine-would go.

* The replacement battery was an undersized gell-type, as the vendor didn't have the correct-spec in stock, but sold this" last-one-on-the-shelf" battery to me for all-of $75:00, & it lasted just on 11-months, which meant I could claim a warranty.

* The warranty replacement battery was up-rated back to OEM spec, & I had to fork-out another $15:00 for the purchase, ( which was fine ), & I was happy to rejoin the lead-acid brigade again, as they're tried & trusted. It lasted about 9-months before needing another warranty claim...

* The next replacement was the same OEM spec, lead-acid, but a different brand, & lasted just short of 3-months before crapping-out.

* The vendor then suggested to try-out a Lithium Iron type battery which he didn't stock, but refunded me the original $75:00 from a few years earlier.

Worth mentioning here that with the lead-acid types, they were given to me in-the-box, & I had to fill the cells myself with the auto-fill plastic-acid-containing bottle supplied, & the contents only just covered the plates when emptied, & needed constant topping-up when checked monthly, even though they were a claimed "maintenance -free" battery. The bikes charge-rate, stator-windings, & rectifier unit was within OEM specs, so the batteries were pretty-much duds, (at least the last one), & weren't able to live-out the warranty period.

* So after charging the last lead-acid type battery-up, & riding into town to claim warranty, I decided to grab one of these Lithium Iron batteries on-the-way at another store that had these in-stock, & just drop-off the dud battery afterwards, & claim back some $$$.

* The salesman offered me the OEM spec replacement type, which was sitting on the shelf, & had absolutely mind-blowing specs, with nearly double the claimed CCA of a std lead-acid type, but he recommended grabbing the proper charger etc for it, which I did not buy, simply because a regular charger is all that's needed, as it duplicates the charging cycle of a cars / motorcycles charging system. All you have to do is watch that voltage when charging doesn't exceed the recommended 14.8 volt maximum.

* So I listened to his blurb, & initially thought it cool that these batteries lose their charge differently to a lead-acid type...A lead-acid-type will lose charge evenly across all its cells, but a Lithium Iron battery will still indicate around 13.1 volts on your volt-meter, even if it's 80% discharged...

* This ultimately means that you can potentially at anytime, be left stranded with only 20% capacity left in the battery, & your bikes / cars charging system is tricked into thinking that the battery is near full charge, & thus only trickles the recharge voltage into it.

eg. Your typical voltage recharge specification, from any car or motorcycle's alternator is around 13.25 - 14.5 volts. So if the settling voltage is typically 13.1 volts on a Lithium Iron battery, your charging system is tricked, & it only supplies around 0.15 volts to the system, meaning a really long recharge cycle for the other cells that are depleted.

* All this to say, the bike does start really well, but it can catch-you-out, as you never know how much capacity is actually remaining in the battery, & 20% remaining at 13.1 volts isn't enough to fire the GSXR-up from cold.

* Also, you must "warm-up" / "wake-up" a Lithium Iron battery before use, so that its capable of delivering maximum current to the starting system. This is done by leaving the ignition on ( including lights ) for a full-2-minutes before hitting the start button, & of course, this is where you get caught-out too...By warming-through the battery, it also loses some of its remaining charge, adding to the question asked every morning, "Are you going to start today, or not"?....

* The remedy is to always pull-the-battery out, & charge it before use, & there's no issue. This can take up to 2-hours...And once your engine is warm, easy starts are experienced all day.

So in finishing, yes, Lithium Iron batteries are super-light-weight, (grossly over-priced ( mine cost $240:00 )), super powerful, need constant charging to guarantee a cold-morning start, but remain not very confidence inspiring, & often you need a couple of cranks to get the motor started. They also will last apparently up to 3,000 duty cycles, we'll see...

So they have their plus's & minus's, but I don't recommend them for a person that just wants to turn-the-key, hit-the-starter, & go..Which is what they're supposed to do aren't they ?...

( They also come with over discharge protection, & over voltage protection, & a little LED bar-graph display with a push-button tell-tale that indicates the power remaining across the cells, but you have to unbolt the seat to view it, so I just pull the bastard out & recharge it while I'm there lol. I have the battery beside me, recharging as I write this LOL ) !!!

-- Edited by Rastus on Monday 10th of May 2021 08:31:58 PM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Damn! Spending $240 on a Lithium Ion is a lot like buying almost FOUR regular batteries! And it sounds like the same amount of trouble in terms of charging and even more when it comes to warming it up!

The only thing I can say here is you live and learn, I guess we will all learn by your trials.

I have not yet seen a lithium ion battery in an ICE vehicle yet. I have seen many gel-cell batteries and they all die in short order, especially if they sit for long periods.

Lead-Acid is by far the most widely used on vehicles no doubt, but in electric cars I think they are using lithium ions.

Let us know how it goes, interesting how the voltage stays above 13 since most are only 12.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

I must admit to being sold on the claimed 280-CCA's, & thought that paying the extra meant that my troubles would all-go-away lol. But there's a little more to add here...

* Since around 1995, all Japanese motorcycles complied with upcoming new laws, where your head-lights & tail-lights are on at all times, whilst the ignition is on. This means there's a lot-of extra current-draw on the battery before you even hit the starter-button...

* And by the 2000's, most of the bikes being made had EFI, which meant the fuel-pump is also priming the system & draining the battery before you hit the starter-button...

* The issue with the GSXR1300 is IMO, that Suzuki regretfully made the battery tray too small, & carried-over the same size & specification battery as was being fitted to the 1000cc capacity bikes, & yet the Hayabusa is at least 30% greater in capacity.

* I'm pretty sure that my old RF-900R ( 1996 model ( CV carbed )) has the same OEM spec'd battery as the Hayabusa, & it's nearly 400cc' smaller in displacement...

* Research on Hayabusa web-sites sees a lot-of-folks doubling-up on their batteries, & making a new tray up to fit the extra battery.

* There is another higher capacity Lithium Iron batter available for my bike with the same OEM dimensions at around 320-CCA's, but it wasn't in the store, & had to be ordered in. I was in-a-spot, & needed one there & then, so I grabbed the lesser 280-CCA one. It was also something like another $100:00 for the 320-CCA, & I thought that the extra 40-CCA's are too expensive for my needs lol !

* A standard lead acid battery for my bike at OEM specs supplies between 120-140 CCA's, so I thought that being double that claim with a Lithium Iron type, that my ass was covered lol.

I'll post up the spec sheets for both, as soon as I can find them, so stay tuned, as it proves that not all that glitters is gold lol !

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Here's the spec-sheet for the Lithium Iron battery that I bought. And after searching out the specs that I thought I had for the lead acid types, I could only find links to the manufacturers. ( The manuals that I kept didn't have specs, only safety & charging guidelines )...

Anyhow, The OEM YUASA YT12A-BS for the GSXR-1300 will deliver a claimed 175 CCA's, & I'll provide a link too.

The WPS branded equivalent that lasted only 3-months had a claimed 220 CCA.

As you can see, there's a lot of claims about what can deliver the goods, & how much yadda, yadda. So finding the right one ( at a reasonable price ), & then locating one that's on-the-shelf is another matter too lol !

https://www.yuasabatteries.com.au/resources/battery-finder/product/battery/yt12a-bs/info

-- Edited by Rastus on Thursday 13th of May 2021 08:48:07 PM

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

At long last...

After pulling out the threads of my seat bracket, from refitting a recharged battery into the Hayabusa every 3rd-day or so, I decided to cough-up some more $$$ & see what the std Gel-type battery for the bike would do for me...I figured that if I didn't have to unscrew the seat again for a couple-of-months, it would be a win, even if the battery crapped-out lol !

So the new Gel battery arrives, & I fit it up straight away after making sure it was fully-charged, & the bloody thing only "just" started the bike, after cranking-over for a number of seconds, in the really cold weather we are having down this way...

Hmmm....

After riding around with the new battery & multi-meter attached, I discovered that the Voltage Regulator may well be playing-up, even though it tests fine on the bench, & meets all the OEM specs. What I discovered this-time-around, is that the VR is only charging at 13.8 volts at RPM's below around 2,500 rpm, & then would drop-off down to around 13.0 volts even.

I wasn't sure how these VR's on bikes are calibrated to operate, as typically, a 4-cyl Japanese motorcycle engine revs-out 2-3 times harder than a car, so I figured they have a set-point at a certain rpm, where they just dump-off all the excess AC voltage being created into the heat-sink...So I thought what-the-hey, lets get another VR, & compare readings in the real-world whilst traveling around with the multi-meter attached. Suzuki specs are all for cold engines, below 5,000 rpm, with minimum output of 13.4-5 volts, which I was getting.

It turns out that a new OEM VR from Suzuki is about $450:00 + tax...So I grabbed a $50:00 new, & brand-named unit off e-bay, just as a test device.

Results...

With the new VR fitted, I'm getting 13.8 volts at all times, less start-up where it's 13.5 volts, & then climbs in value, but then never changes its output, regardless of what RPM's the bikes sitting on.

Having had the new VR fitted now for over a week, I haven't had to change-out or recharge the battery just yet, but poor cold, & wet weather means I'm not riding it either, so well see...It starts with the Lithium battery after about the 3-4th attempt to start from cold, at temps below 10-deg-C.

With a bit of luck, the new VR may well have cured my issue, but we'll see soon enough.

Funny to think that if I lived in a big city, & had start-stop traffic all-the-time, the old VR would have been working fine...Hmmm...

At the end-of-the-day, at least I discovered that just like a car, & motorcycles charging system should be putting-out a solid 13.8 volts at all times, regardless of RPM's, or engine temperature.

Hopefully problem solved, & I'll use the new Gel battery over the warmer months coming-up, where it should be more-at-ease in cold-starts.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Actually cars should be putting out around 14.5 volts when charging, so numbers like 13.5 and 13.8 still seem low to me.

Had similar issues with Mercedes alternators charging just under 14 volts but not with this new one! It's cranking out a solid 14.5

Sounds to me more like you have a small draw taxing the battery, or perhaps you are letting it sit too long as often times more than a few months is not good... sure it's okay if you have a good strong battery and no draw, but two months is a long time to just sit. These aren't deep cycle batteries so any kind of draw over time is not good.

I'll think you'll find as I have said above, that Gel-Cell batteries are garbage and the worst for long term storage and tending. Not sure if they just dry up quicker or what, but every fancy gel-cell battery I have ever seen ends up being dead, even if it's disconnected by the following season after sitting and they don't bounce back. The only real reason for a Gel Cell is in cases of odd fitment applications where it has to sit sideways or in a non-traditional flat and level position. Also in the cases of severe motorsports like off-roading or boating.

What I have found is the wet cell batteries are the best, and you would be doing yourself a solid by checking for a draw and the next time around perhaps spending a few extra bucks to get the Suzuki wet-cell battery.

No doubt from the dates on this thread it's clear the Lithium batteries were a disappointment. Although if it comes to pass you have a draw, then no battery is going to be able to contend with that for long!

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Thanks SELLC or your input, it is much appreciated :) !

At the moment, the the Lithium battery "is" actually holding its own...I haven't had to pull the thing out-of-the-bike for at least over- a- week, & even then, some success with start-ups, & off-we-go.

My issue at this stage seems to be a burned-out, but not-yet-kerput, VR that was only charging at revs below 2,500 rpm, with multi-meter attached.

The Lithium Iron battery isn't perfected just yet, but it "is" a solid power-source to rely on, when other parts are failing, but remain within OEM test specs.

My Gel-Cell battery hopefully will hang-in there for summer, that with hopefully pro-long the life of the LiIrO4 battery, that I'll store over the warmer months, & get some value out of the $$$ spent.

Stellar007 · Member

My Streamlight has Li-Ion "smart" batteries and they seem wonky as hell... I know your thread is about applications in motorcycles, but these babbies were flaking out a day or two after use!

How has your Li-Ion battery been treating you Rastus?

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

The battery is still working fine.

*(I must have posted the result in the Hayabusa thread, as all the testing I did led me to purchase a new $50:00 voltage regulator as a test-mule ( Suzuki wanted just under $500:00 for an OEM item ), & neither have failed since, meaning that the battery has been in the bike for 12-months or so, trouble free).

The big problem remains however, with temperature...If it's below 15-deg-C, I need to give the bike at least 4-good cranks on first start-up, with a 30-second pause between each crank, so that the battery warms-up, & then delivers the crank-speed to fire-up the ice-cold engine...( If there's a positive out of this, at least there's good oil pressure available before she fires-up)...

These batteries also won't take a recharge if the ambient temperature is low...So be aware...

All this to say, that I'll be wearing out a starter-motor instead of flattening a battery LOL !...But once warmed-up, no worries at all, easy 1-second crank to fire-the-beast-up all day / night long.

Nb. These batteries are claimed to live for over 3,000 duty cycles, where-as a lead acid is only claimed to have a life of 300 duty-cycles, so time will tell...

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

So my bike crapped-out last-week on the way to do some shopping, right on the intersection where the supermarket is...Everything went dead, & no electric power available...I initially thought that my $50:00 voltage regulator crapped-out, & hence the flat battery, at 17:00 on a Friday afternoon.

Anyhow, a good fellow helped-me-out, & on the way to grab a new battery to get me home, we drove past the original place-of-purchase of the Lithium battery, & I decided that buying their recommended charger was a better option than buying another battery...( I have a gel-battery as a spare at home already, & a taxi was going to cost me upwards of $100:00 return to bring it, or my charger back, plus the need to find somewhere to plug a charger in...A new regular lead-acid battery is now $165:00 ).

So the folks at the near-by liquor-store drive-through let me use their power, whilst my battery recharged on the new "recommended" intelligent charger, that shuts-down / floats at full charge, whilst also being capable of servicing all battery types, so this was a good investment imo, as my old charger is specified for lead-acid use only. It cost a little over $100:00 AUD.

So after a couple of hours & a few Bourbons, I refitted the battery, & it got me home no-worries with no operating charging system. And it wasn't fully charged either.

I grabbed a new "better" VR that was mailed-in in a few days, & it did not fix my issue, & after further testing, discovered that my stator-coil-assy has crapped-out. Poor weather recently meant that I couldn't do a proper check-over initially, & a stator-coil-assy is a non-moving part, so it wasn't something one initially considers as crapping-out, but they do LOL !

For the record, OEM specs want over 65 ACV or more delivered when cold, & @ 5,000-rpm. The last time I tested, I was getting over 50 ACV @ around 2,500-rpm & all was well with the new VR fitted up, but this time I was getting only 38 ACV...

Anyhow, Suzuki wants $650:00 AUD for a new stator-coil, & I have a new one from e-bay coming from the folks that sent me my first replacement VR ( which is still good after testing, so now I have a spare new VR ), & they only wanted $85:00 AUD...Quite a difference...The only thing is, postage time...

Anyhow, the point here is after test-driving, & the reason for posting, is that this Lithium battery, when fully charged, has more than enough grunt within it to get me into town & back, involving at least 2 x start-ups, without a working charging system...This buys me time to await the new stator-coil, & enjoy the saving of more than a few bux...And it keeps me mobile, though limited.

So, over 18-months since purchase, this battery is still delivering the goods, & I'm very happy with this, even if it doesn't like cold weather lol ! So I guess I'm recouping some dollars from the initial purchase price.

Charge time on the new charger is extraordinarily long, over 8-hours I'd guess from dead-flat. My old charger can do this from dead-flat in around 2-hours I discovered from the last time things went-to-shyte, but the old charger will keep upping the voltage beyond the max allowed 14.8 volts maximum, so you have to monitor it. I've figured a combination of both will ensure fully charged specs, in the least amount of time. The round-trip from town used about 1/2 the batteries capacity, with about 1-hour charge time needed on my old charger...It's all learning hey !!!

These are good batteries imo, though temperamental in cold weather.

Stellar007 · Member

I can't believe I missed this little nugget! Glad to hear you got it sorted! Always seems like a slow 8-12 hour trickle charge is the best for the battery in any configuration... the fast chargers really heat up a lead-acid battery to the point they start to boil... even a regular trickle charger will do this if left charge for too long... the smart charger is probably easier on the LiIon battery.

I know it's been some time since you have posted the reply above, but how has everything worked out since then?

FYI, it also seems that the LiIon battery in my flashlight works awesome now that I have it plugged into a ground-fault plug with proper polarity. So much in fact that the other day I left my flashlight stuck on a customers rear lower control arm (2018 Lincoln MKZ) when I was servicing a wheel bearing. By the time I realized it was already too late in the night, but the next morning the customer returned the car and I'll be damned if it wasn't still there -- AND STILL SHINING BRIGHT after over 14 hours being left on! I was impressed, but more than anything I was just very happy it didn't fall into the road and be lost forever!

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Stellar asked...

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I know it's been some time since you have posted the reply above, but how has everything worked out since then ?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yo,

The battery is still hangin'-in-there, & it saved my ass once again...The short version is this...

* New Stator Coil arrived & was fitted-up early February, so I was riding around on battery power the whole time since late November...

* Everything was fine up until the end of March, when after checking things out after another failed-start-undercharged-battery, I discovered that the wiring-loom-connectors / plugs had a major melt-down...

* It appears that during manufacture of the wiring-loom of the new Stator-coil, that a few strands of wire were snapped at the plug-end, of one-of-the-3 wires, that were hidden behind the insulation. Since all 3 x wires carry the same A/C, the one with the broken internal wires over-heated, & created the melt-down.

* I'm still testing the system after a temporary repair, but all is well, as the charging system is fine, & all the wires remain cool when felt.

* New plugs arrived about a week after the temporary ( but solid ) repair was made, & I've simply been waiting the same time-duration to see if it fails again, as there's only so-much length of wiring-loom to chop, & I didn't want to burn-out a new pair of plugs / connectors, if there was still an issue going-on.

* That said, I also bought another new Stator-coil too, in case all goes to shyte again.

So...I have a new VR & Stator-coil fitted that are working fine after a minor hassle, & also now have a back-up pair of new VR & Stator-coil. And all these 2-pairs of components are still well under the 1/2 the cost of the Suzuki OEM asking prices...

As for the battery, it's still kicking-ass, though struggles with the cold weather, with the bike needing at least 3-4 cranks, with a 30-second pause in-between each crank at these cold 10-15 degree C days. You can hear with each cranking effort that the motor turns-over faster & faster. Once fired-up, she'll start first crank every time all day long.

-- Edited by Rastus on Tuesday 20th of June 2023 07:22:16 AM

Stellar007 · Member

Hmmm... You know this reminds me of a Cadillac that I am working on now... it had a bad harness at the drivers door, from opening and closing over 130k miles a few wires started to break! From there who knows how many others were going to break!

Perhaps if you can get the entire harness that would solve this issue? Three months on battery power only means something just isn't connecting, at least from a laymans point of view over what? 10K miles?

I dunno, but if you're talking about degridation of the harness in some spots, why not replace the entire harness? Something is not right there...

Increased crank to start time when cold can simply be due to excessive wear on the rings and larger bore size of the "jug" as they would call them in Harley land... Once warm, the expansion allows for normal oppertation...

I think perhaps in all these prolonged cranks over time, you may have taxed the factory harness beyond it's useful life? This is just crystal ball, maybe 3 or 7 shots of scotch talking here... but maybe worth a look?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Feel a fresh charge coming on!

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Stellar007 wrote:
1.Hmmm... You know this reminds me of a Cadillac that I am working on now... it had a bad harness at the drivers door, from opening and closing over 130k miles a few wires started to break! From there who knows how many others were going to break!
2.Perhaps if you can get the entire harness that would solve this issue? Three months on battery power only means something just isn't connecting, at least from a laymans point of view over what? 10K miles?
3.I dunno, but if you're talking about degridation of the harness in some spots, why not replace the entire harness? Something is not right there...
4.Increased crank to start time when cold can simply be due to excessive wear on the rings and larger bore size of the "jug" as they would call them in Harley land... Once warm, the expansion allows for normal oppertation...
5.I think perhaps in all these prolonged cranks over time, you may have taxed the factory harness beyond it's useful life? This is just crystal ball, maybe 3 or 7 shots of scotch talking here... but maybe worth a look?

R1. On a motorcycle, the alternator / magneto assy hangs-off typically the LHS of the engine ( when sitting on one ). From there, 3 x wires plug into a connector, that then runs a few feet into the Voltage Regulator, that's fitted on the rear subframe, LHS, below the rear seat.

R2. pt.1...The full wiring harness isn't available for purchase. pt2. I already have made one up, should the OEM harness burn-away. pt3. I was riding on battery power alone, since the stato- coil couldn't make the required A/C voltages to engage the VR to kick-in, & convert into 12-V DC.

R3. See R2.

R4. Possible, but she starts first kick when ambient temps are above 15-deg-C in the warmer months. I tend to think its the battery, as I've been told they need a wrm-through before delivering full current. Ideally, I'd have a charger hooked-up when in park for a few days. This guarantees 1st starts, as the battery is tickled all the time, & warmed-through.

R5. Hmmm...Might be the Scotch at this point-in-time, though anything is possible in the future. Good reference-points Stellar !