I always hate when one of those jobs rolls in, because you just never know how bad it's going to escillate. So far I've had the best luck with welding nuts to the studs and then using a socket to turn them out, but sometimes it takes several attempts for each one, and sometimes you still have to drill them, which depending on their location can be impossible with the engine in chassis. Luckily the newer V8 engines have more robust hardware.

Don't forget to pick up an EGR tube block off plug which typically doesn't come with a new left manifold (Unless that one actually has EGR).

Yes Rastus, they call them "Freeze Plugs" here, but I did mention to him they were looking a little sketchy due to the rust... the moisture you see around them is from me spraying the cloth in the ports so they didn't catch fire.

We have all had a good laugh at that Red LocTite meme,

 

But it's not so funny when that vehicle pulls into your bay!

I knew something wasn't right when I was trying to remove these studs! They had to be heated up four times and literally fought the entire way out once they were free! Even if they were cherry red!

These photos are of the actual stud holes from this job,

 

 

And this seems to be the case on every single stud on the passengers side! Just CRAZY! I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out why these were not just twisting out by hand after breaking them loose!

Now we have our answer! Clearly you can see the massive amount of red LocTite that was used!

My question to PowerStroker would be, did they use red LocTite from the factory on some years? From the looks of the hardware and gaskets it appeared to be all factory! 

Never seen crazyness like this... Red LocTite used on aluminum... WTF were they thinking!

Safe to say these heads are going to require 20 heli-coils!

Decided to pull the entire engine, because at this point we're all in and we might as well clean this old girl up before the rust everywhere else takes hold and gets out of control. 

This should be an awesome before and after thread, so stay tuned!

 

What a biaatch...

If the studs eventually came-out cleanly, a thread-chaser tool is all you need SELLC, as then you can tell if you have 100% usable thread still living in there...

The only issue with going oversize, is what happens the "next time" this corrosion issue occurs ?...Will there be enough metal in the head to go another size over ?...

 

* Also, because the cylinder-bock is an earth-point, corrosion of some sort will happen between the stud & head, since one is steel & the other aluminum, so something durable will have to interface there, even if the factory says leave the threads dry.

If you don't think "grease" will go the distance, maybe some simple clear silicone will be the thing to use. Our Aussie Holden V-8 head studs located themselves into the water-jackets, & if the OEM stuff wasn't available for the studs/bolts, simple clear silicone did the job well, as it seals & acts as a lubricant too. And you won't get the hassle that LocTite-red will give, as silicone stays soft.

Just a simple very light coat evenly over the thread-of-the-stud should be all that's needed. This should ensure no corrosion, & easy removal next-time.

-- Edited by Rastus on Monday 21st of February 2022 07:41:47 PM

SELLC said

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


1. So you're suggesting a thread chaser is going to replace the missing threads in the back portion of the hole, where there are none ?...

2. Oversize ? A heli-coil keeps the original size stud... It would be stronger than aluminum threads, even though the stainless steel coils are threaded into aluminum.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


R1. The holes are blind, so that means some area would have been needed for the "shavings" of metal to go when the thread was first made...And it can't just disappear, so that if it was stuck to your thread on the stud, it would have destroyed the rest of the remaining thread when you pulled-it-out... Aluminium threads tend to either crack-off in portions & stay behind, or they will come-out with your stud completely.

By cleaning out your threads with a thread chaser, & then blowing out with carby-cleaner or whatever, you will see what remains, & not necessarily need to heli-coil is all I'm suggesting. A lot can go wrong when heli-coiling, even with the right tools etc...And depending on the diameter of the stud, you only need "x" amount of threads to get maximum strength anyway.


R2. Very true, but if anything was to strip, it would be the aluminium, so you'd have to go over-size next-time. It's very difficult to work new threads into blind-holes the full length.

-- Edited by Rastus on Monday 21st of February 2022 08:11:06 PM

Good move SELLC...

I completely disagree with your first sentence...I suggested regular-clear-silicone, since it acts as a lubricant, will prevent corrosion & won't ever be a problem in removing studs.

I also suggested cleaning-out every hole with a thread-chaser & carby-cleaner to determine their state, before doing anything, so that you didn't have to waste your time helicoiling every frigging hole LOL !. I never do anything less than a good job, so that it doesn't come back & bite-me-on-the-ass ;) ! There's also a good chance that carby-cleaner or similar will chemically react with the LocTite red-shyte, making it easier to remove. The idiot that did the job last-time obviously filled the frigging holes up with the stuff instead of a light smear over the studs thread...

The studs won't be a problem to remove...In fact, now the heads are off, the ones broken "below the surface of the hole" become the easiest to remove...

Studs do not have any stress or tension placed-on-them, since they can't physically be tightened.

Snap-On make a great tool where the center of the stud is drilled, & then an insert with 4 x cutting edges bite in, & then removed with a female nut that suits the "bite-tool"...And even then, and this is critical, as long as the initial hole that's drilled ( pilot) is well centered, you just keep drilling larger & larger until what remains of the stud simply falls away.

I've had many studs unscrew themselves on a drill-bit whilst doing this method, & generally the thread has remained in serviceable condition. It's critical to mark the drill-bit-length, so you don't drill too far, & hit a water jacket...Maybe that's what the idiot did before you, & why there's so much red-shyte in the hole, to plug-up the head ?...

It is a biaatch of a job, & in no way am I suggesting you take short-cuts.

Thought I'd give a little update on this thread... it's been awhile but as I have mentioned before we decided that removing the engine and sending the heads out would be the best course of action. 

During this process we will also be able to address a great deal of future issues that are almost all due in part to rust... that being said, the job has been upgraded to an R&I + O/H, at least from the lower half up... given the low miles (70k), if this is the original engine it should be pretty clean inside... at least in terms of the lower reciprocating assembly. Perhaps PowerStroker could let me know where to look on this engine to find out if it's the original engine? I have yet to clean the engine enough to read out any numbers, and I know they have to be there somewhere... Just be nice to check all the boxes.

Obviously, I'm not set up to remove the cab from the frame here... so removing the engine from the front was the only option, which required full removal of front clip (less fenders)... it was probably a good idea since we have found many places that are just starting to pop, where if treated now it would go a long way in ensuring 'ole "Big Blue" stays solid, rather than getting further rotted and weak. 

So I pulled out the engine.

C'mere cutie!

Not the most fun, but it's the best way to really get in there and freshen this old girl up. But before all of that engine compartment and frame sprucing I have to get these heads off to the shop! So on the pedistal she goes!

Next up, I got to strip her down.

Along the way I like to remove the debris with a vacuum because I am super anal when it comes to this kind of work on rusty old engines where I'm trying to save the lower end.

This is the best way to prevent dirt from getting into your engine! Never use a vacuum when raw gas or vapors are present (for obvious reasons). 

Getting every spec of rust, dirt and grime away from the engine now prevents a lot of issues with dirt getting into the engine when removing the pans and covers.

It's for this reason I like to treat, prime and put the first few coats of paint on an engine... because once I seal the intake and exhaust ports this is going to be the only time you could get away with such an operation... using a French Tickler I will also descale the sides of the engine block and everywhere else that has rust scaling... but getting the dirt out like shown above is the first step, from there you seal the engine before doing any cleaning... again this is only in cases where you are re-using the lower end. I am making an assumption that everything inside the engine will be good before I break it open, but that is only because I drove the vehicle prior to opening it up and know it's sound. If you are changing out engines or doing a full rebuild then none of these steps would apply, but we are planning to use the existing low mile short block.

Tomorrow, after plugging the left side exhaust ports and taping off the intake runners I will be using the French Tickler to descale the engine block to prep for rust inhibitor / primer treatment.

Clearly it's going to need a new dipstick and transmission dip stick tube. This happens due to condensation from the heat of the exhaust manifolds in close proximity. 

 

As I mentioned above, I do this now while the engine is sealed up... it makes for a little more work and final touch up when cleaning the other surfaces later, but it greatly reduces the amount of risk of debris getting into the engine too! So that is key, and worth the extra work... again, this step is only when you're saving the lower end... if your getting your engine rebuilt or replacing with a reman then none of this applies. 

But this one should clean up real nice... even though it looks pretty rough now.

 

After I knock all the loose rust and old paint off I'll treat it... then lay two coats of paint and allow to dry 24 hours before opening the engine. 

More to follow.

Bet you guys all been wondering WTF has been going on, huh?

LOL

Well, thanks to Chuck's... well actually our A1 Machinist "Rick", we got ALL 20 of them studs out of the heads, along with a fresh overhaul!

Detailed photos to come!

Good work dude !

No doubt there's plenty of high-temperature grease on those threads yo !

The 'Vette & / or Stang have to earn-their-keep too sometimes...

Keep your eye's off any truck.

Grab yourself a V-8 station-wagon of your choice to do the "once-in-a-while" tricky stuff where a truck would be handy.

You've been working on this almost a year?

I fully agree the DPS6 is garbage, I'm just trying to educate you about warranty policies.

I don't see many Super Duty's anymore period since I allowed my Diesel warranty certification to expire.

We work at a different pace at the dealership I think. 2 years on a single vehicle would be frowned upon.

You kept that truck alive Stellar, & it provided you with bread & butter.

What's the problem ?...

And you're in for a surprise if you think the studs you replaced are going to last any longer than the original ones did...Eventually from the heat-cycles, all the grease & oil or whatever will dissipate, & the studs will perish again.

Just sayin'.

Rastus wrote:

---

You kept that truck alive Stellar, & it provided you with bread & butter.

What's the problem ?...

And you're in for a surprise if you think the studs you replaced are going to last any longer than the original ones did...Eventually from the heat-cycles, all the grease & oil or whatever will dissipate, & the studs will perish again.

Just sayin'.

---

 

No Rastus, that is where you are wrong! Scroll up and you will see that I did not use standard FORD MOTOR COMPANY "sorta" stainless hardware! I used an aftermarket hardware that IS STAINLESS!

You can clearly see from the photos, if you know anything at all about stainless! 

I have a set of simialr stainless hardware I installed on my Firdbird some six years ago! To this day it is indeed, STAINLESS and has not backed off!

There is a difference in the crap that Ford puts out, and the quality aftermarket offerings from people who know what real stainless means... in the case of Ford's offerings it's just more or less a stainless "coating"....

So wise up mate, it has nothing to do with removing the studs (unless some jackass red-locktited them in there like in my case) and everything to do with the quality of the steel used!

Maybe tomorrow when the sun is up I'll take a photo of the Firebirds "real" stainless hardware looking brand new on rusty Hooker headers?

The same holds true for ALL these Triton engines, and not just the V10's but the V8's as well! 

I can only sum it up as engineered obsoletion by the manufacture to release such a small size manifold stud and nut, and not even use 100% stainless hardware!

You'll notice on Ford's newer 7.3 "Godzilla" engine they used manifold studs that look like 3/4 inch manifold bolts... I can only imagine they did this because it was cheaper to get "coated" 3/4 inch manifold bolts than it would be to get a good stainless set, however a 3/4 would add a lot of meat in the event it had to be removed. But let's be honest, the V8 and V10 triton are run of the mill compared to Ford's newer 7.3 Godzilla... at least for the next few years anyway!

I know Rastus, and I appreciate your input... it was a rough week last week! 

There really is no "problem" per-se, except I'd sure as hell like to see this job set sail soon! PowerStroker says they frown on jobs sitting for two years at his dealership, yet he just got done telling us in the DPS6 thread that his dealership has had countless (in the hundreds) of dead DPS6 vehicles in his lot for quite some time, and that it's looking like at least eight more months before Fords will even have the modules for them faulty DPS6 transmission... so that sounds like his dealership has it's own fair share of cars sitting there for over a year!

My "problem" is similar, every time I get us over some mountain something else comes along to screw up the momentum... in this case it's the damn valve covers! You can see in the post above where I am pointing to the rusty valve cover bolts, some of them didn't make it and literally turned to a nub the moment I tried to remove them. Two of the bolts on the passengers side were VERY BAD and required us to crack the cover to minimize any risk to the head during removal. At the time I did not realize that these truck valve covers were NLA from the dealer! Imagine that, Fords discontinued making the valve cover for these V10 triton engines! We're talking about a 2004, not that old if you ask me! The valve covers are different between truck and van applications, they still offer valve covers for the Vans, probably because there are still ambulances and emergency vehicles still in use out there, but for the truck owners we're just screwed! Go to the dealer and ask for valve covers for a V10 Triton F250 truck and they are going to tell you they are NLA (No longer available) aka obsolete. 

It's really rough too because even if one of the covers wasn't cracked, we would still need new covers because the hardware and gromits come as part of the valve cover! So you can't even buy the hardware and gromits separately! But I have found that the aftermarket has made these valve cover hardware kits for the V8 triton, which I suspect uses the same hardware and gromits as the V10, however I'd have to buy two of them V8 hardware kits to have enough for one V10 engine (with some left over). 

I really just wanted to get him some cool chrome or aluminum aftermarket units, but the aftermarket hasn't picked up on making valve covers for the V10 yet! So it REALLY sucks because I'm at the point I could start putting the engine together but I don't want it sitting around open with no valve covers! Espeically since I am building the engine up in the vehicle! Too much risk of something falling in there, or dirt/dust at the least.

But I have the truck back in the garage and it's not coming out until it's done! I think the before and after photos will be stunning, and with such low miles (70k) and a flawless interior the owner should really be styling and riding high when it's finished. 

I'm sorry, your exact words:

PowerStroker wrote:

---

My thoughts are as follows:

The DPS6 is a junk design for which there is no long term fix, and there never will be. We have customers on their 10th clutch, and clutches aren't the only problem... The TCM which includes the robot that shifts and clutches the transmission is also junk and they have been on national back order for months. We have rows of these cars on our upper lot waiting for a TCM to show up. Some of these cases have rental car bills that far exceed the value of the car itself.

---

 https://autotrend.activeboard.com/t67508894/fords-notorious-dps6-dry-clutch-automatic-shifted-transmissi/

I thought the "rows" there at your dealership were bigger than what they must actually be... Still, "paying for rental car bills that far exceed the value of the car itself" sounds like they been there for quite awhile... and let's not discount the fact that these are "NEW" cars we're talking about here... maybe not "BRAND NEW", but from what I'm reading these DPS6 transmissions were failing right off the assembily line, and have been in the dealers trying to get this issue resolved since they were "BRAND NEW"!

So, if you're looking to throw shade at anyone for being "slow" look no further than your own Dealership!

And I might remind you, I don't have Ford's money or their man-power... I'm just a one man show cleaning up Ford's little design mistakes... or are they really more like planned obsoletion than mistakes? bless their evil little hearts!

Hell, if I could find kids to work now days I could make bank fixing all these busted Fords around town! 

 

Grandma can't drive anymore... the only thing she can do is hand the car down!

Even still, it's got some sentimental value now in the family. I wish Fords would quit playing games trying to introduce things with the idea that they become such a problem people trade them in before the payments are even finished.

Any way you slice it, it's bullshit! Fords should be buying these cars back because it's better to take a medium size loss than a huge one, and don't kid yourself... if this was a one off problem that would be one thing, but Fords has a HISTORY of building shit that can barely make it out of the warranty before it needs expensive repairs due to poor design.

Well this thread isn't about the DPS6 transmission... or any other of Ford's "whatever"...

I haven't seen an ass kicking like this since the 1990's!

But, the show must go on!

It begs the question though, can you help me aquire a set of valve covers for this job? It would help a lot!

If you can't, I understand... but I'd like a fresh set for both driver and passengers side and I'll pay for them a fair price.