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Post Info TOPIC: Swap a Diesel 6.0 PowerStroke for a Gasoline 351 Winsdor?


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Swap a Diesel 6.0 PowerStroke for a Gasoline 351 Winsdor?


I just got back from checking out a sweet ass deal on a 1996 F250 351W 4X4 truck with a cracked frame. Outside the frame it has LOTS of good parts on it, so I figure I should buy it regardless as Ford Truck parts have ALWAYS sold like hot cakes.

Been awhile since I been behind the wheel of a Gasoline truck. It had an exhaust leak so it had a pretty mean tone, but the power seemed awsome out of the hole, but nothing like the 6.0 Diesel when she gets up and going.

Still I might consider putting taking out this engine/trans from the 1996 F250 and transplanting it into the 2003 Super Duty body. I have access to a nice GT40 intake and I could prolly bend up my own custom exhaust. Only thing I would need are a good set of shorty headers.

What I am wondering is if I will be able to access the engine much better? Having to pull the cab back to make repairs to the 6.0 Diesel just to pull the heads is something I dont ever want to do on my dime again. Seems like between the intercooler, radiator, trans-cooler, oil cooler and condenser there must be almost a foot and a half! Two feet if you include the crazy ass fan schroude the 6.0 has.

Since I am planing on buying the parts truck anyway, I am wondering what everyone else thinks. Do you guys think mounting the 351 will be a Pain in the ass? I dont think it should be too bad, its just getting the drive shafts to work that I am worred about.

I could likley make a small mint getting rid of the 6.0 PowerStroke engine in peices, plus save myself a whole lot money down the road, not to mention the grief. Hell I could prolly be back on the road this year and put some serious change in my pocket.

What do you guys think?

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What no-one like the 351 anymore?

I dont really care for the high cost of the fuel injected Big Block 460 and the V10. I mean there just isnt a LOT of these engines out there.

I dont really care for the 7.3 liter PowerStroke either, however they are out there for a good price if you are willing to buy the entire truck in distress.

More than anything I wouldnt mind having that Piped sound that the 302/351 give when run thru flowmasters.

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Im well on my way to the replacement of the diesel engine with a 351 Windsor.

I think there will be LOTS of room for me to work on the engine when service or major repairs are needed. Depending on how I fab the engine mount brackets I could still slide a Diesel back in there one day, but I think once the 351 is roaring I will never look back.

While the diesel engine is Heavy Duty in every way, its just not a good idea that they stuffed half the motor under the windshield. It also doesnt help when that engine happens to be an early model 6.0

I got a feeling that I am doing the right thing. What I will learn by busting down an entire 6.0 engine to the core will no doubt shead lots of light on areas that I have not yet covered. Depending on what kind of money these engines will generate in parts will dictate if I purchase more of them in "Salvage" state.

I am know I will have to find work arounds for the ABS, Cruise, and Cluster gauges by making the switch but I plan on getting everything on line. It should be interesting.


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Are you on fucking drugs?!

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Big Angry Hillbilly wrote:

Are you on fucking drugs?!




 I think he is.... and fucking cheap ones at that!!!



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I'm on drugs because I dont wish to get raked over the coals by Ford Motor Company? Because I dont want to have to remove my cab to fix something?

Sure the 6.0 engine is a superior engine. Heavy duty as they come, however the idiot who decided to make cab removal manditory for simple service should be shot and hung.

Ill miss the clank of the diesel and the whistle of the turbo, however I wont miss the down time, the problems, the stinky gas and I sure wont miss having to plug this bitch in on cold winter nights.

I do less than 30 miles a week. Most of the times I never even get my truck up to opperating temprature before reaching my destination.

What Ford did by making it so much work to service this engine is a sure sign they are greedy bastards. I feel sorry for the poor sap who goes out of town with one of these and breaks down. They are fucked. No way to fix it. I on the other hand, I wont be once the 351 is in there.

In 2-4 years time people will be GIVING away their Super Duty trucks in distress. They already are. I am tempted to throw a Chevy motor, or even (gasp) a Mercedes Engine in there! Just for fucking spite! Yeah the 6.0 PowerStroke engine is impressive! Some of the things they have done are very worthy of praise! International did a FINE job of building a heavy duty powertrain (less the injectors), Ford fucked it all up by trying to hide it in the F-Series engine bay. Oh I wonder what will happen when the Ford built diesel hits the market... Just like every other Ford made engine its sure to have head gasket problems, and getting over 100,000 miles will be a nickle and dime of a time.
 


-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 22nd of November 2009 04:17:49 PM

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You aren't supposed to remove the cab on a pre-08 truck to do anything, just an FYI.

I do it because I'm about 6'5 and somewhat 'robust' and leaning over a fender all day sucks shit.

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Yes I am aware of that, however I told myself the last time, NEVER AGAIN.

Plus the new owner of this truck is as cheap as they come. Guy would likley re-line his own brake shoes if he had drum brakes!

Really I just didnt want to deal with pulling the transmission under the truck again. These Diesel transmissions really stress my trans jack. I honestly thought I would be able to slide the cab back, I didnt realize they welded most of the core to the cab up in the front. Now that its done, its done. I have more room, but its still going to suck. Im just happy I dont have to work on it this time around perched up hanging over the core.

I am worried this engine may bend my cherry picker again. The last 7.3 liter engine I lifted bent the boom and I had to replace it. We will see, but I may have to pull the oil pan and pickup tube to get it out. 

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So what's the latest update on this project Rex?  I've done a bedplate and 4 head gasket jobs since this was originally posted.  I wanna see some progress.

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Ohhhhhhh.... A bed plate and 4 head gaskets huh? You must think your something!

Well lets see here... I have installed two engines, sold countless parts (Most of which did have to be removed), countless brake jobs.... and I am in the middle of a custom igniton system on a California bound Camaro.

Lets not forget that I am still on the fence regading the powerplant this beast is going to have. The 7.3 is not completly off the table, neather is the 6.0, however whats important is my customers. My toy can wait, and its better off in the garage than in the salt, especially considering how bad these fuckers rust out.

Unlike you I talk to customers, order parts, pick up said parts, and just about everything else YOU do, I do times FOUR! You are in no possition to challenge my dedication to the project. Your just a little line mechanic who has guys throwing you the same red meat all day. Nothing complex about that PowerStroker.

Get back to work!

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Man there is SOOOOOOOOOO much room in the engine bay! You really dont realize how big that engine bay is after they shoe-horn them Diesels in there, however a 351W will fit in there with GOBS of room! I am really getting excited!

Depending on how things go and my work load I think its going to be one crazy summer!





You know I would look for one of them newer dashs for my truck but I dont like the glare off the big grain they use on the dash pads, plus in real life the needles look somewhat cheap. I think I rather like the 2003 custer better. I will admit the blue is a little nicer than green, but screw it, I am going to have one hell of a time wiring this bitch any way I slice it.









-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 29th of April 2010 12:15:05 AM

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SELLC wrote:

, but screw it, I am going to have one hell of a time wiring this bitch any way I slice it.









-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 29th of April 2010 12:15:05 AM



Well... at least you have finally come to that realization.... Now... stuffing old technology into the engine bay....

"We" play with old school motors in our toys... there is a reason for that and none of it really has to do with anything ressembling "sanity". We have an RB Dodoge wedge punched out to 500 inches - I feel this is about as far as you are going to go without building a grenade. This thing is destined for dual quads and will most likely require one hour of maintenance for one hour of driving... (the maintaining part is more fun than driving at times).

But.... replacing a 6.0 liter diesel with a 5.8 liter old school gas engine? Ummmmm - it IS your money...

 



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Here is what you have to look at,

(1) We both know the maintanice cost involved in keeping up an early 6.0 Diesel PowerStroke. It's not exactly cheap considering Fords likes folks to Replace parts, rather than make them serviceable.

(2) Reliability. Here in Michigan while not as cold as where you are Pogo, these trucks WILL eventually leave you needing a jump start. There will be that night you didnt plug it in and there you are in zero degree weather with a dead truck. Nothing like fetching the battery booster to start off your morning.

I can pick up a complete 351 powertrain TRUCK INCLUDED for under $1000. Sure it will be a rusted out POS but I am only after the powertrain, which is very likley to still be in good working order. After I snatch the PowerTrain out of the truck there is a VERY good chance I can sell off the rest of the truck to re-coupe my money spent. From there it's just a matter of bolting it in. Sure at first I will have some issues, with customizing some AC and Power Steering lines, I will have some wiring to do for the speedo, tach and other creature comforts, however most of this stuff isnt really a big deal, and once its done, its done. I can start using my truck while I play with it.

No longer will I have to by 15 quarts of oil, no longer will I be replacing expensive injectors every two years, no more replacing them STUPID turbo up-tubes every other year. No more worn out front ends from a boat anchor of an engine.

I had dreams of building up a PowerStroke engine better than Fords but in my dealings with them and the limited access you have to service them why the hell would I want to subject myself to such torture? Fords should have designed these trucks to allow service personel access to the vital parts that are always going bad. I will NEVER forgive Fords for designing these trucks to require near cab-off or engine removal to repair. I will punish them by sticking a 351 or some other gas engine in this truck and driving it forever, something they NEVER designed to be the case.

You are right that building it is most of the fun, but when it comes to this truck I am not going ALL OUT, it still is a work truck. While I may lift it a little, not a whole lot is planned in terms of making a "Race Truck". I am just after a good look, with good sound and performance. RELIABILITY and easy access to everything is Paramount.

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Isn't it funny.... not that long ago, I was saying that I would love to own a diesel but it wasn't a wise thing for me to do.... You accused me of being an idiot.... or something similar, anyway... But, you always accuse me of that... I'm comfortable with that because it isn't you I have to impress...

Now.. you own a white elephant... you are beginning to realize part of what I have been saying all along.

Your truck was available from the factory with either the 5.4 V8 or the 6.8 V10... Either one would have been available with the 4R100. Does the term "bolt in" mean anything? Yes... a spendy bolt in... but much cheaper than trying to do what you propose. Yet the first thing that comes to your mind is some goofy fucking drug induced idea of using an old technology 5.8 motor? And then trying to pair a 5R110 to it? How about putting a flathead V8 with ArDun heads in a Taurus? And mating it to a CD4E? Shit.. let's add a PTU and all wheel drive while we're at it....

Did your folks have any kids that lived?

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The 5.4 Triton has NEVER impressed me. The V10 is something that went out as fast as it came in.

The 351 however has the 302 to thank for the many aftermarket performance parts that can be interchanged. I understand that you work for the dealer, and anything that is not considered original equipment scares you white.

After dealing a lot with BorgWarners inability to make a good transmission (the T-5) I soon learned of the Tremic transmission. Shortly thereafter I learned of the two peice steel bellhousings that mate the engine to the trans yet keep the clutch from cutting off your legs when you pop the clutch at 4200 RPMs. You see Pogo, there really is no concern to me if the engine or transmission just bolts right up the the existing cradle, the same holds true for the cross-member. It is much easier to break out a welder and some raw stock to fix these problems than to deal with the likes of International/Navistars regular problems. Once you have fixed a few mounting issues you are done. Unlike that of a PowerStroke engine.

While there could be a bell-housing on the market to mate a 5R110 to the 351 a dealership guy like yourself may not be the best person to ask. My thoughts of instaling a 351 into a truck are no where close to what you suggest with a Taurus and you know it.

The real problem here Pogo... The problem that keeps you looking the other way is the design... You dont really mind what people have to pay, or do to gain access to these motors. You drive an older Ford truck and take pleasure in sticking it to the guys that have the money to burn on new toys. Yes I agree that a low to the ground sports car that is built for speed could argue that confined quarters and hard to access engines are the nature of the beast, however when dealing with a DIESEL TRUCK that train of thought goes right out the window. Much like how a Semi truck's cab folds forward, the Ford trucks should also offer some kind of design that allows complete access to the engine with relative ease. We are talking about Diesel trucks here Pogo, and people buy these with hopes of seeing 500,000 + Miles. Things like easy access to the engine, and reasonable designs that are built to last have all gone out the window with a Ford truck.

My thoughts of using a 351W engine that has PROVEN the test of time is not a bad one. Not only can it outperfom the International/Navistar Diesel engines with similar modifications, it has a much better track record. It is also just .2 liters shy of 6. While the PowerStroke's lower end has much more beef than the 351W, the odds of a PowerStroke ever being as reliable is slim. Perhaps if Ford's realized that their trucks are not sports cars they could win me over with there efforts to ensure people buy new trucks every 5-7 years.



-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 2nd of May 2010 04:03:37 PM

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Did your shitbox running with that antequated gasoline engine?



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Actually the project is on hold and is currently a lawn ornament. I won't be putting any money/work into that vehicle until the bank makes right on some $10K that is owed.

Actually it's more like $100K now after damages. But yes! It will live again! Unless I lose, in which case it was totaled some time ago, as you should remember.



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What the heeeelll are you talking about?

I'm not on the same acid flashback as you are, so you'll have to bring me up to speed. This where the guy owed you a gadjillion dollars and you kept his pickup cause of it? Now its in a thousand pieces, and you demand payment? Or is this something else.

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You must have not been paying attention...

Truck was fixed and the company was awarded the truck.. It was ours free and clear. At the time (2008) the economy was in the tank, no one would buy it. We then took out a loan with the truck as collateral for almost $18,000. Bank fucked us out of $10K after the paperwork was signed!

Since then the truck just happend to sustain some damage from an off road excursion, then finally was totalled when a large tree trunk fell on the roof. I been doing battle with the bank every since then, and currently I am jumping thru hoops trying to hold the bank accoutable. Until such time, I wont be doing anything with the truck.

Thats the short version. Go to the V8 cafe for the long detailed version if you are thirsty for more.



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I'd tell 'em to come and get it, at this point!

Who'd loan 18k against a truck that's probably worth 5-8k, TOPS?

Specially with the roof all caved in.

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LOL!

I suggest doing a search on KBB or NADA for the value of such animals. Now while the market got pretty pudgy in 2008 it's still $14-18K for a good clean F250 and this is some 4 years after the fact.

Who would loan what is irrelevant. The point is I have consistently taken at least a 10K loss on this thing, it's caused a serious financial and working inconvenience paying top dollar interest on an unfunded contract. 

I am supposed to have a hoist, tire machieen, welder and even more important a land contract on my last location! I have been working like a fucking cave man for over 3 years now! All of this because of this banks inability to tender in cash their own check!

Just now after 3 years am I starting to break even on 2008 because of this mess. So no, regardless if I gave them the truck, or if they take it, this thing is not going to be over.

Recently I had a bank error with regards to a small $250 credit card payment. For whatever reason this bank forgot to capture the charge, even though I had an approval #. The bank acknowledged the error, and even paid me $250 for the error! That's good banking! Yet we have this Credit Union that has stiffed me on $10K for 3 years, while I have been making payments at almost full interest! That's just beyond bad banking!



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A year and a half ago, I scored an 08 F350 for my son... well, equipped (but by no means overtoyed) with a 6.4 and about 230,000 kms (143,000 miles for the uninitiated) for 16,000 CAD. We changed all the fluids and did the rear brakes just because our area is murder on rear brakes. We knew the previous "owner" well (this was actually a fleet truck). This truck stickered at close to 70K CAD when new. 

 

I don't think there is anything out there that holds a lot of resale value.

 

On edit... there is a 2006 Viper for sale... only about 2000 kms on it. It is worth a lot more than it is worth... honest.



-- Edited by PogoPossum on Saturday 2nd of June 2012 07:17:45 PM

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I forgot about this thread. Hows that truck coming Rex?

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It's still sitting here chilling... Waiting for a donor after that off road accedent and tree fell on it.

Why do you ask PowerStroker? Did you think I just gave up?

Awwww... Poor thing you.. Now go get back in that POS Saturn and keep dreaming.

By the time I get around to it Ill be able to pick up a donor truck for a song!



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I'm just sick of your neighbors calling me and asking me to get you to clean up that junk yard you call a back yard.

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Pffft!

Actually the truck and my 420 are the only vehicles I have in my back driveway and the truck is under a car cover (Well two actually).

Why dont you get a REAL Saturn, like one of them Sky's? Why do you got to be slumming it in that ghetto cruiser? You are a Union Truck Mechanic, unmarried with no kids... You can afford it! Quit being a cheap ass pussy.



-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 3rd of June 2012 09:30:23 PM

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My Saturn is the real saturn. Once the S series was killed their product line went down hill in a hurry. I'm not slumming it, in fact, she's getting a new set of Michelin Primacy tires tomorrow... And I'm gonna turn the front rotors with the on-car lathe. She's gonna be smoother than a Cadillac.

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PowerStroker wrote:

My Saturn is the real saturn. And I'm gonna turn the front rotors with the on-car lathe. She's gonna be smoother than a Cadillac.


 You are going to turn the rotors? WTF PowerStroker? Don't you even know how to do brakes?

^^ PowerStrokers photo of his Saturn just a few months ago ^^

You just put brand new rotors on this car a few months ago! Perhaps you need to check for a hung caliper?



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Yeah, I'm disapointed with my ACDelco rotors, my calipers are fine. I turned them on the car and all is well now though.

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PowerStroker wrote:

Yeah, I'm disapointed with my ACDelco rotors, my calipers are fine. I turned them on the car and all is well now though.


 I know another guy that likes to blame everyone else too! I think you might know of him.. Used to go by the name of Berry.

If you had to turn your rotors there is a very GOOD chance that something is wrong. Either a twisted rubber brake line, a seized caliper pin, or maybe you dented a steel line when you were changing out the engine. All of these things will create a restriction on the return of brake fluid to the master, which causes the brakes to hang and overheat the rotors where by causing them to warp. I find it amazing that I have to explain this to a big shot ASE, Union, Dealership tech... On second thought, no I dont.

Hope you sort it out. A few more cuts on them rotors and you will be buying new ones.



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While I appreciate the refresher course on Brakes 101, I can assure you that the entirety of the hydraulic system and sliding components are operating within normal parameters. A web search will show you that warped front rotors on S series Saturns is not at all uncommon... Especially the way PowerStroker drives.

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Would you like a refresher course from me in how to connect batteries together, too?

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lol!

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PowerStroker wrote:

. A web search will show you that warped front rotors on S series Saturns is not at all uncommon...


 You are aware what Pogo and your Mafia brothers would say about using a Web seatch for technical information dont you?

Something about Coffee table book or something or the other.

 



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