I think it relates to the machining of the valve spring pockets from the factory. Its important, but not if the valve train that come off the vehicle has been kept in order. If not, well you got some work ahead of you.

I guess there has been a lot going on.

You have access to the V8 Cafe so you know what I'm dealing with at the moment.

That was a very juicy PDF Tony!

Thanks for good read! Sounds like you're getting your numbers in order and I'm defiantly most interested in the progression of this modification! 

I have always marveled over the performance of the 500's 

I once had a 1985 Euro 500 SEL and it really seemed to haul ass! 

Hi Tony H,

Yep, you're going to have some fun LOL ! The tighter the Lobe-Centre-Angle, the more valve-overlap, & generally more top-end power. However, it's interesting to note how the 560 cams are retarded by so many more degrees, as this too increases top-end power...

As always, the general understandings / rules of camshafts are always conflicting with one-another, & one guide-line with one motor, has a differing out-come with another ! Maybe since the 500's were generally 3-speed auto's ( in the 1970's ), so we find advanced camshaft timing, for more low-end torque etc etc, & the 560, though smogged-completely-out, had a 4-speed trans.

All I'm getting at is that usually, you find cams with tighter LCA's on the larger engines, not the smaller, & 106 degrees to 111 degress LCA is significant in camshaft design.

Very interested to see your results when you start adjusting your camshaft phasings Tony, keep us posted !

Cheers,

Rastus

PS It's also annoying that MB don't offer the full-specs of their cams, & only timing values etc. So well done Tony on finding the full-specs yourself !

-- Edited by Rastus on Friday 21st of February 2014 01:47:16 AM

So here is the latest: my old fears about the "mystery" coating on the 560 pistons has returned to the point where I am looking for other options. I am putting a lot of effort and $ into this and just don't want to risk it on the pistons. After much research I think a good candidate are Buick 3.8 turbo pistons-they are forged, the correct diameter with several oversizes available, the compression height is .085" higher(leaves me room to mill the top to the ideal squish clearance) and they have a dish very similar to the volume of the 560 pistons. The Buick pin is about .060 smaller which leaves me the option to have the pin bores machined to the Mercedes pin size. I bought a cheap cast piston off Ebay to see how the valve, skirt clearance and deck height is before I get more serious.

Last flip-flop-I promise! After a lengthy discussion with my machinist I decided to stay with my original plan and go with the 560 pistons. Customs were way too expensive and I could not find a off the shelf that was close enough in compression height to work.  Block is now in the machine shop for final honing and parallel decking.  I have flip floped on my head choice as well. The 560 heads really do have more potential and the exhaust valves are larger as well as the intake. The main reason I was reluctant to use them was the loss of CR I would relaize. To compensate I am having .020" taken off the deck and after I machine the piston tops(about .035" to get .040" squish) I should end up with about 9.4-9.5:1 CR. Pics when I get it back.

-- Edited by Tony H on Monday 24th of March 2014 12:05:30 AM

Having said all that... Would I get more enjoyment just putting a free flow exhaust on it and enjoying the drive?

plus the option is a W108 2.8 manual.. Vs the 3.5 auto.. 

Ben

I did a little write up on using the spring compressor tool -

http://autotrend.activeboard.com/t34382884/mercedes-benz-w126-front-coil-spring-tool/

Definatly makes the job 1000 times easier. I too feel the soft air ride would take away from the classic and tight feel of these cars.

I just found this thread, 5 stars GREAT. I am an older hot rodder with many different engine builds. I got 400HP out of my 351 Windsor back in 1971 using Pontiac 389 valves in the Ford heads. Had a Morris Minor pickup with a 1311 CC Cooper engine pitting out 130 HP, blew the doors of a lot of V Dubs back then.

I have wanted to do a Mercedes V8 engine for almost 15 years now. Finally have a 1977 450 SLC with 33K miles, engine runs great with CIS.

Back 10 years ago I bought 8 MB pistons on eBay, told they were for a 450 M117 engine. But there is no dish, Mahle A031-96L26 in 92 MM zero over bore. Pistons came with rings and piston pin, I was thinking a ceramic coating and a skirt coating and find a low mileage 450 block. Piston is flat top with 4 valve notches.

But now a 560 crank would bolt up, sweet. Nothing better than more torque.

Speaking of air suspensions, my first MB was a 1969 300 SEL 6.3. Air suspension was great as everything was fresh and working well. But a new air suspension would be much better. I could go over speed bumps at 60 MPH with zero issues. Some lame expert at Benzworld was saying no way a 6.3 could beat R107 or other 560 engine car. HA. Maybe 3-4 car lengths to 60 MPH and 10 lengths or more to 120 MPH! Mine had a Borla dual exhaust and dynode @ 300 HP at the flywheel and 433 #/Ft torque. Blew the doors off a LOT of rice rockets. Zero to 60 was under 6 seconds sometimes, usually 6.5 seconds.

If I were to do this 560 crank into a 450 iron block I definitely would go to the General Motors parts bin with hot rodder options.

Somewhere a long time ago I read about a MB with Chevy pistons and rods. Cursed with a photographic memory that with age is now CRS, cant remember s**t. Anyone remember it?

Any updates on this its very interesting . Even though I'm playing with a M100 that has custom extractors and I have had a cad scan 85mm billet throttle body made of original 65mm throttle body and once car is back from painting with fit it and FrankenCIS fron Dkubus 

Hey guys,

You are stating MUCH misinformation when it comes to the M116 / M117 as it pertains to your dates, and production information and most importantly GM / Ford's use of the "designs" for the M116/117 All the information below is to help you not to criticize or insult because I am an engineer and teaching by correct information is always a good start, and there is no better place to start than the SOURCE so please take this into consideration and enjoy the read!  

I really hate to burst your bubble here, but everything you are talking about and the "performance" upgrades you are attempting on the M116 / M117 has already been done back in the late 70's-90's when two actual automotive ENGINEERS that once worked for Mercedes-Benz quit and started a small performance race engine development company called..... Ohhh lets see what was the name..........A M G........  Which if you do not know that AMG wasn't always ////AMG well then you might not even need to attempt what you are doing because, Hans Werner Aufrecht and Erhard Melcher of Grossaspach (That is what AMG stands for) they designed and fabricated their OWN IN HOUSE 4 Valve heads for the M116 / M117 and producing max HP out of these blocks including 6.5ltr conversions.

Now AMG did this SO WELL in fact and WON many DTM races 24hrs of Spa etc. etc.  That Mercedes-Benz worked up a deal to BUY their tuning / design company. Now between the early 70's until the MERGER with Mercedes in the 90's. Mercedes wanted to buy and have AMG build the 4 Valve heads for them which is still used TO THIS VERY DAY.... AMG still builds by hand, their AMG engines which is a totally separate company from Daimler-Benz AG..

Now up until the Merger with Mercedes in the early / mid  90's AMG had licensed tuning shops all over the world including Japan and the USA. Now, it is of a great opinion being an Engineer myself, that those two German Engineers were just that, Engineers that understood flow dynamics, and power-train design and the entire picture of electronic tuning which even back then, they were also modifying ECU, TCM and even Idle control modules which for everyone on every single forum this is (Out of their abilities). Now AMG even turbo / supercharged these engines way back then, and let me tell you if those two engineers were able to determine all of this in the 70-90's can you please tell me what you are trying to bring to the table that hasn't already been done??????

It would appear that your 400HP number is less than what AMG was producing way back then.... So, you are not creating anything NEW or amazing here as far as I am concerned because I highly doubt you are going to be creating from scratch your own 4 VALVE HEAD design to use.... And from what I read you are trying to use 2 VALVE heads which AMG drained the life out of what could be done to the 2 Valve heads and maxed that out, which is WHY they designed and built their own 4 VALVE heads. 

So.... all things aside, I believe you guys need to do your homework on this block, the heads, HP, flow dynamics, and basically everything concerning the use of the cast iron and aluminum blocks which even at that, one must understand when and why Mercedes broke away from their cast iron block to the Aluminum block....... This took place in 1981 with the introduction of the C126 Mercedes Coupe which under development Mercedes determined that an aluminum block was needed during their "ENERGY CONCEPT" design protocol which ultimately had to do with Emissions C.A.R.B, and weight savings....... Now, unless your engines are for track use only, Federal and especially CA emissions standards dictate what must STILL be in effect which for all of the Mercedes vehicles of this era must past both visual and tailpipe standards, which modifying these types of engines need to be controlled and run to Emission spec standards...... I have much more to go into about this, but first want to touch base on..............

Now you talk about the Mercedes block design being used by GM etc. Let me help you out.... This was due to another Merger...... DAIMLER-BENZ....May 7th 1998, Daimler-Benz AG in Germany and Chrysler Corporation in the USA signed a merger contract where Mercedes bought Chrysler and formed Daimler-Chrysler (Daimler-Benz) AG. And in doing so Chrysler had German engineers which had access to Mercedes block an general automotive designs, Now how that relates to GM etc. GM did not take or buy Mercedes designs and reverse engineer them for use. Chrysler engineers which came from Germany to help the Daimler Chrysler transition which stayed in the USA eventually quit and went to work for GM and others so on and so forth was able to obtain these engineers which had knowledge of their block designs and I am sure they smuggled some CAD designs too.... Now this is before FIAT bought Chrysler so keep that in mind! So individuals out in the world did not just STUMBLE upon a realization that GM blocks share the design from Mercedes Blocks....... This is very old news, Circa 1998, and if you look at Mercedes forums, you would have seen this topic already discussed. 

Now let me jump back to the entire concept at hand....... Trying to take a block that has already been worked through the roof in terms of design, re-design to be used out on the German Racetracks including Nurburgring! Hans Werner Aufrecht is the HEAD OF DTM today, which I would hope people on here know what DTM is??  And he just happens to be the "A" in AMG, so if you are trying to tell me that what you guys are attempting is "New, Hasn't been done" etc. I think you will find that you are late in this game and you might want to think about researching AMG and the companies engineering efforts on the M116 and M117 V8 Mercedes Power plants..... NOW the biggest aspect that you might want to take into consideration is that Mercedes had two different versions of the M116 and M117 which ranges from the M116.962 - M116.968 and similar for the M117 (I didnt give full range of numbers)... What does this mean you may ask?  Its all in production engineering for USA market VS European market.... Euro or "Grey Market" Mercedes from factory came with higher displacement and higher HP rated variations which if you want to start off right like AMG did.......... You might want to consider sourcing a EURO-SPEC motor, you would be amazed at some of the differences, but it is 100% clear you are using a US spec foundation which yet again you are behind the 8 ball here. 

To cap it off..... German engineering the United States has a lot to be thankful, I mean BOSCH invented fuel injection, which you would be amazed at people that will say that US invented this........ WRONG.... Bosch's first rendition of EFI started with a very genius system called KEJETRONIC...... Now for BMW guys, they know K-Jet or Motronic (BMW) it is all BOSCH and it was a very smart Electro-Mechanical fuel injection system which pretty much every automotive MFG then used, it took the USA quite a few years to adopt this, and were stuck with carbureted petrol engines which was a joke compared to CIS (Continuous Injection System), which eventually in a short amount of time turned into full Electronic Fuel Injection which was invented by Bosch, which Bosch also invented the O2 sensor, Hell Bosch pretty much invented all of the Electronic and Mechanical fuel injection systems for advanced Emissions...... Might want to consider homework on BOSCH also.

Now why am I bringing BOSCH and emissions into this??? Well if you are planning on running these blocks on the street, well then you have even MORE work ahead of you..... If they are only being designed for track use, well then you might as well visit MEGA-SQUIRT and Elbe Engineering or HB Motorsport because yet again, they have already figured this out along with much more HP VS whats being discussed between you guys on this forum..... Lastly AMG stopped playing with the M116 / M117 systems in the 90's because they moved on to bigger and better things (Thus is the Engineering world)

So, someone mentioned MBworld forum etc....... Umm, you all might want to consider AMG Classic forum if you want to truly understand the M116 and M117 to AMG standards..... Because, yet again AMG is the gold standard when it comes to the M116 / M117 and everything has already been done, documented, and is being propelled today by other companies like Elbe Engineering, HB Motorsport, and I can name off 5 or 6 more but to be honest, I have said enough. 

It is a big world out there and there is a TON of information / misinformation on the web....... I like to bet my money on actual engineers not home mechanics, and if you look hard enough you will find that these blocks have already been engineered inside and out, and there is NOTHING new that can be discovered or "figured out" about the M116 / M117. So gentlemen do not waste your time trying to invent the wheel, the wheel has already been invented and if you are truly interested in the M116/117 please visit companies like Elbe Engineering, and Carobu Engineering... You might discover that they have figured out even MORE in terms of modernizing these M116/117 power plants for street and track use, which yet again I can't stress enough that if these are to be run on the street well none of them are excused from Emissions standards.  Take care everyone and Happy Motoring!  

Oh, we have a wanna-be purist amongst us...

Rastus I suppose everyone has their own style, this dude C126AMG isn't sporting any photos and he sure is throwing around a bunch of names. 

C126AMG, no one is trying to re-invent the wheel here, most people already know the best bang for the buck is nitrous... You could spend tens of thousands of dollars on an AMG 6.0 DOHC and get walked by a two valve 5.6 liter with a relatively small injection of nitrous (read that as less than 200 HP). The heat involved in Turbos, Superchargers and Blowers makes daily driving such a fine road cruiser something that will not quite be Mercedes and it will also add increased cost for maintenance any way you slice it.

I still have six M116 and M117 engines laying around, not including the one that runs and is currently for sale... but I can assure you that thru it all I have been PAID to drive a Mercedes-Benz W126 S Class 420 or better for the past 12 years (up until I got my Corvette). Can you say the same Mr. C126AMG? I have cut up and scrapped over one million MSRP dollars in late W126 sedans and coupes over the past 20 or so years... I have driven them all in just about every configuration and I can tell you it was my pleasure! 

Do you even OWN a C126AMG? Or even a plain old W126?