Well as part of a contenuing of my efforts to "Get information out there" I am going to link up these photos we been kicking around for some time.
The Job - Powerstroke 7.3 Liter Oil Pan replacement on a cube van.
To start off anyone with a Ford V8 gas or diesel knows about the good ole' rotten oil pan. It sucks, but you guys not having to replace them on the Diesel cube trucks can take comfort in knowing that you dont even want to know!
First off the book requires that you pull this monster engine out in order to replace the oil pan. This alone is enough to rack up the billable hours to an insane tune. To make it worse we owed someone a favor, and this hog turned out to be it. Mind you we got paid well, but I sure feel sorry for the next guy.
Anyway, I managed to replace an oil pan on one of these suckers without pulling the engine. I might add that you should really be careful trying to do something like this. While cleaning the surfaces of the engine block you do run the risk of it falling. Even moreso when you are spreading the new silicone and installing the new pan. Do not forget to apply the special "Required" SUPER DUTY Silcone. Yeah thats right, they still use silicone on these pigs for the oil pan, but it aint no regular silicone, this stuff is top shelf and must be used if you dont want leaks. Dont forget you will need a new o-ring for the oil pickup tube as the old one NEVER holds in place for you to finagle it back on.
Anyway it is a great risk of your hands to instal an oil pan without removing the motor. It can be done, I have done it, and I am sure others have too, but dont underestimate this job, likewise if you are paying someone to do it, know that unless they are charging FULL BOOK TIME + they will most likley be taking serious risks to save you money. Therfore you should shower them with money and bring them beer.
Here are some photos of the job.
Ill post up some more photos of the SUPER SILICONE later.
But you aint lived until you have replaced a 7.3 liter Powerstroke oil pan!
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Yo.. Princess... you are experiencing a "rite of passage". Most of us survive without letting our femanine side win... Quit squeeling - you sound like a school girl.
You speak like this is something "special" - you are the first man in history to replace a 7.3 oil pan... Pardon me for not being overwhelmed....
Jeezus... you are some prima donna... I pity your customers....
Try doing it without pulling the engine.
Better yet post up some proof you have even done one. Otherwise spare us your worthless babble.
Without pulling the engine? Not on a bet... the chance of earning a hobby are too great.
As far as replacing an oil pan on a 7.3? I have to admit that I have never had the pleasure...
However.... I have replaced more than one front cover on the 7.3.... and wouldn't you know that this requires removing the oil pan....
You're asking me for proof???? Did you ever look inside the oil pan for a piston cooling jet? Did you look up to see if someone else said WTF is that stuck to the drain plug before it was tossed and forgotten? Whoa!!!! Piston cooling jet? Pogo has been enjoying that cheap Okeefenokee ganja again, right?
Scrap the attitude and I can turn you on to a group of guys that will open your eyes and help you to improve yourself... "help you to improve yourself"....
Now... you will have to help me reconcile the fact that you knew that the PSD is a Navistar engine and you felt that I was unaware of this..... me and my factory manuals were unaware of this..... like I could open a factory manual and it would say "Ford doesn't make a PSD... Navistar does.... go away and don't bother us...".
Ralph was a wiener... but he was never THAT big of a wiener....
Uhh...dude...you can't 'lower the oil pan' to change the front cover.
The pickup bolts to the front cover (FYI - the low pressure oil pump is in the front cover) and you can't get the bolts out without taking the pan OFF, much less put them back in.
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
MY store has to prove stuff to YOU? I can't recall the last time an ICP sensor (sorry, ICPSRO PDQ FUKBHG - did I miss anything?) cost much more than a few hundred bucks - diag, parts and labor....
For you... I am ever so sorry that Ford has so recently unleashed the 6.0 on the world.... I can only wonder what will happen if the 6.4 ever goes into production (this is written 02/22/2009) and Christ knows what will happen if they ever consider urea injection....
This is not true. I removed the pick up and the bolts without the pan being all the way off.
I know when removing the timing cover and lowering the pan you have much more room to play with. I am willing to bet that pan NEVER come over that cross member!
Bet ya!
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
You don't remove the oil pan to clean surfaces properly? I refuse to gamble with my customers.... and it works for me. I have seen techs say "I did it <this> way and it must work - the guy never came back". "never came back" being the operative phrase.... I would guess that you have more than one customer that is afraid to darken your driveway.... warranty expected or not....
At one point in time, you felt that I had a fair grasp of these engines..... I'm sorry I cannot return the compliment.
Well unlike you I replaced the pan with a brand new one, something you should have considered upselling if there was any signs of rust.
Anyway your statement about not cleaning the block surface is pure garbage. Were talking about silicone here, of course it has to be spotless. I would never re-seal anything without a proper mating/sealing surface.
If thats not you in the photo then who is it? The guy who REALLY does the work there at your shop?
By the way that hoist looks like one I am having put in my garage. Amazing them things cost less than $1500.00 now days.
Nothing like working like a gentleman, however you have already told us thats not you.
I am starting to think you dont even work on these trucks. Im starting to think your just the guy who runs around talking about it, asking the REAL TECH "When will it be done", "When will it be done"!?
Am I right?
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Had the oil pan been rusty, I can assure you that I would have reacted in an appropriate manner... however, the concerns I had seen were "hard start cold" that escaped normal diagnosis... the cure was a new front cover and oil pump. Dropping the pan with the motor in place is one thing... getting it out is quite another from my understanding.
As for the picture... I don't have just ONE guy that works in my shop... I have a team and, for 12G, my team could about put a new motor in a 6.0 truck....
I am in the position I'm in because I do have some amount of knowledge.... I am a working shop foreman and my usual fare consists of those vehicles that resist normal efforts.... I rarely get to see bad ICPs these days because they aren't secret and thy don't cost a lot to fix.
You are grappling at straws but the die is cast... you have already shown your "stripe". It isn't too late to repent - you may have some chance of saving your sorry ass....
Think what you want... I would have never made some of the posts you made... too bad that thread was deleted... that must gave been party night in your shop....
Well, since we're gonna throw pictures up, I'll add a few of my own.
You ain't lived till you've put a set of ARP head studs in a 6.0L
You ain't lived till you've had to wash this SHIT out of a cooling system
You ain't lived till you've done bedplate gaskets in a 6.0 on the floor
You ain't lived till you've had to pull a cab to change a wiring harness that isn't tied to anything and chafes through on the pump, and pays the princely sum of 8.4 hours to do it:
On a crane truck with no power to the crane because the engine won't start, and therefore, won't run the PTO
Gratuitous toolbox shot
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
I have replaced quite a few 7.3L oil pans in both F-Series and Econolines. Most have many miles on them and also leak from more than just the pan - corrosion is also a big problem in my region. I have watched several technicians jack up engines and replace the oil pans in chassis - about a third of them have returned leaking from the seal. It is absolutely crucial to prepare the sealing surfaces which is difficult to do with the engine hanging - oil slowly dripping down the inside of the block. I am not willing to gamble with my reputation or the customer's time.
I have replaced quite a few 7.3L oil pans in both F-Series and Econolines. Most have many miles on them and also leak from more than just the pan - corrosion is also a big problem in my region. I have watched several technicians jack up engines and replace the oil pans in chassis - about a third of them have returned leaking from the seal. It is absolutely crucial to prepare the sealing surfaces which is difficult to do with the engine hanging - oil slowly dripping down the inside of the block. I am not willing to gamble with my reputation or the customer's time.
Well I am proud to say the oil pan I installed into that cube van is still dry as a bone. I am well aware of how to "Prep" the mating surface prior to install. So go ahead and TRY to discredit my work, I can take it because I know the work I do is as good as some, and better than most.
Big Angry Hillbilly - I appreciate all of your photos, I am sure they will help many others to understand the TRUE amount of work needed to repair their Powerstroke diesels. While I have not installed a set of ARP head studs on a Powerstroke yet, I plan to give it a shot this summer on mine. You can count on me to show good detail with regards to this upgrade. I put ARP bolts in just about everything I pull the heads off of. I agree the ARP bolts/studs are a good investment, one that I will need to make myself very shortly.
-- Edited by SELLC at 04:05, 2009-02-23
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
I think my point here was this, "The book called for removal of the engine to replace the oil pan on this cube truck".
I did it without having to pull the engine. Yes it was a miserable cocksucker, but I got it done and it was a damn fine job. If you cant see the refridgerator unit on-top of the cab, then you dont fully understand the imporance of doing this job without removal of the engine, compressor or condensor for that matter.
My work is not discredited. If anything its "Hail to the victor!" as I have done something that was considered impossible. You want to know something else? I saved the customer money. They cut me a check, and low and behold it was good.
I saved that truck, as the budget they were working with was not in line with the value of the truck. But yeah, it was all BS to get the job done for less, and I know I was taken advantage of, but their paper was good at the end of the job, so I had to take it on the chin. You win some, you loose some.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
I would NEVER attempt a 7.3 oil pan in chassis. Period. End of convo. Regardless of how much aftermarket SHIT is on it, I wouldn't bother. I have NO desire to be doing an oil pan/gasket replacement on a truck for a second time, on my tab.
I hate doing shit for free, especially when it's a shitty job like that one. (READ Pogo's post about earning a hobby. I don't think he's talking about basket-weaving.)
We just did a truck with dual compressors and all that other shit on it at our shop, but it was a 6.0, which is a BUNCH ruder to pull than a 7.3
EDIT: And another thing...what's so bad about pulling a condenser and a compressor? EVAC the air, yank the shit off, and pull the motor?
Don't you have an A/C machine?
-- Edited by Big Angry Hillbilly on Tuesday 7th of April 2009 05:31:40 PM
-- Edited by Big Angry Hillbilly on Tuesday 7th of April 2009 05:32:18 PM
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
Its been almost two years now... I think its safe to say the job was done well.
Then again thats the only way I do em'.... WELL
Yes my pops has the AC machine, but you fail to realize the importance of keeping cost down because you work for the stealership.
I can see your a little flustered because you could never pull off such a job with sucess, but dont cop an attitude with me because of you're shortcomings.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Dude, Hillbilly could wipe the floor with you. He's a very seasoned Power Stroke Tech. I agree with him. I too have seen them done in chassis, but they have a much higher failure rate when done that way. You got lucky on yours Rex, congratulations. Next time you may not be so lucky. The TA31 Silicone needs to be applied to a completely degreased and dry surface and assembled within 3 minutes otherwise it will probably leak. The idea of doing this in chassis with oil residue running into the joint and trying to reach around inside the pan to do the pickup tube at great risk to disturbing the silicone bead just doesn't appeal to me. Better to yank the motor and flip it over so it can be done right. It's also nice to leave it upside down overnight so the silicone can completely cure before it ever touches oil. Yeah it takes time and costs more... doing things right usually does.
I got lucky? GTFOH! Luck has nothing to do with it. I think the word you boys are looking for is SKILL.
Apparently you guys are not aware of a thing called GumOut, and this other thing called GRAVITY.
It is likley that anyone whom has had one fail was prolly not a good mechanic, or was in too much of a rush to take the time to ensure everything was spotless.
I am well aware of how a surface needs to be prepped to ensure a good seal.
Like I said.... You aint lived until YOU have replaced a 7.3 PSD oil pan on a cube truck while the engine remained in the vehicle.
By the way, so I know how bad I effed myself on this job, give me an idea what this job would have cost at a typical dealer.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
TOTAL - $2793.00 and thats IF there is nothing else that needs replacement which if you pull the engine you could pretty much factor in Motor mounts, hoses, and perhaps other things.
I think its clear to see you are full of shit PieKiller. I should also say that rusting oil pans have been a problem with Ford truck since back in the 80's.
Since I am a mechanic I dont mind that Fords used shitty steel to manufature their pans, because I get paid to replace them, however I would think Ford might have considered making the pan out of a better grade of Steel or perhaps Aluminum once they realized the pans were prone to rusting back in the 80's. Of course why would they bother? 99% of the time a pan wont rust out until after the warranty.
Boy dont you look like a putz! Trying to quote the labor cost for an F450 truck rather than an E450 Cube Van... Did you add in the dual compressors? I bet not.
You should also NOTE that warranty time pays quite a bit LESS than regular book time. This is because most vehicles under warranty do not classify as Severe Service, as there is less miles and the vehicle is "Newer". By the time I see them they have well over 180K miles. You dealer boys cant handle working on older engines because you have been spoiled working on new stuff. Boy it must be nice to fix nice new clean engines... You would think that nice new clean engines shouldnt need to be fixed, but then again we are talking about a Fix Or Repair Daily.
Boy you have really raised my blood presure today PieEffer!
-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 06:02:21 PM
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
He gave you an "in chassis" estimate Rex, settle down.
Are you telling us you charged 21 hours to do it in chassis. If so, you're a pretty big crook.
The book time of 21 hours assumes engine removal as per the Ford (proper) service procedure and includes the evac and recharge. Though you do get extra time for dual compressors, but not 3 FREAKING HOURS. How can you possibly charge 3 hours for an evac and recharge period?
-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 07:22:51 PM
-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 07:24:59 PM
I think you need to check out what it cost to evac and recharge a system with a refridgerator unit as large as this one.
He did not quote the time to do such things in truck, and to call me a crook because I beat the book time is pure BS. If a job pays 21 hours it does not matter if you get it done in 10, you still get paid 21 hours. You try and plead this case to any mechanic and take 11 hours from him your likley to get your lights knocked out. Part of being a good mechanic is being able to beat book time and perform a quality repair. The same holds true for the guy whom takes 31 hours, he still only gets paid 21 hours. Are you sure your a mechanic PowerStroker?
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
I think you need to check out what it cost to evac and recharge a system with a refridgerator unit as large as this one.
He did not quote the time to do such things in truck, and to call me a crook because I beat the book time is pure BS. If a job pays 21 hours it does not matter if you get it done in 10, you still get paid 21 hours. You try and plead this case to any mechanic and take 11 hours from him your likley to get your lights knocked out. Part of being a good mechanic is being able to beat book time and perform a quality repair. The same holds true for the guy whom takes 31 hours, he still only gets paid 21 hours. Are you sure your a mechanic PowerStroker?
There is some truth in what you say, but here's the thing. At my dealer when one of these rolls in the door I personally only give the customer an estimate to do it out of chassis and thats how I do them. Some of the guys give the customer 2 choices, one in chassis for about 12 hours, and one out of chassis for about 22 which includes everything (no extra for evac and recharge bullshit). They explain the pro's and cons of doing it each way, and if they come back leaking on a customer that chose an in chassis replacement the customer pays for the 2nd repair because they were warned. In your case I guess it would be ok to charge the full time for an in chassis repair, BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE WILLING TO ASSUME THE RISK AND WARRANTY THE REPAIR AT YOUR EXPENSE. Then and ONLY then will you truly earn the upside of taking risks to beat the book.
I choose not to risk such things, but that's just me. Different strokes for different folks I guess. You're still gouging the fuck out of people on your evac and recharges.
There is some truth in what you say, but here's the thing. At my dealer when one of these rolls in the door I personally only give the customer an estimate to do it out of chassis and thats how I do them. Some of the guys give the customer 2 choices, one in chassis for about 12 hours, and one out of chassis for about 22 which includes everything (no extra for evac and recharge bullshit). They explain the pro's and cons of doing it each way, and if they come back leaking on a customer that chose an in chassis replacement the customer pays for the 2nd repair because they were warned. In your case I guess it would be ok to charge the full time for an in chassis repair, BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE WILLING TO ASSUME THE RISK AND WARRANTY THE REPAIR AT YOUR EXPENSE. Then and ONLY then will you truly earn the upside of taking risks to beat the book.
I choose not to risk such things, but that's just me. Different strokes for different folks I guess. You're still gouging the fuck out of people on your evac and recharges.
Some truth in what I say? LOL Thats pretty damn funny.
Whats even more funny is the fact you guys put your customers into a situation where you guys arent liable for the craftsmanship of your work. I wont perform or quote a job unless I can back up that estimate with skill. Sure if a customer brings in his own parts there is no warranty if the part fails, however if the problem was as a result of the craftsmanship of my job, I would cover it. Sounds like you guys are just setting up the customer to take the fall in the event the mechanic fails. You have no right to even offer up an less expensive option if you cant back the craftsmanship of the job.
There are risks involved in doing these things in chassis, however that risk is usually limited to the mechanic's well being rather than the customer.
With regards to the AC work.. Well I have already explained this is not your typical 2.2 lb system.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
SELLC wrote: You have no right to even offer up an less expensive option if you cant back the craftsmanship of the job.
This coming from a guy who uses roloc discs to clean heads and deck surfaces. As I said, I don't even offer the customer the "economy" option. Some of my co workers do, but thats their business.
The way the book tells me to, and warranty the job, or the a different way, and the only warranty I'll give you is if it breaks in half you own both pieces, but the second way's cheaper.
What would YOU say to that, as the customer?
I pull them to fix them, myself, and that's the only way I will do them.
FWIW: From what I have been told, it's a lot easier to snaggle a van oil pan in chassis than it is an F-series.
-- Edited by Big Angry Hillbilly on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 09:27:11 PM
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
FWIW: From what I have been told, it's a lot easier to snaggle a van oil pan in chassis than it is an F-series.
From what you have heard? Chit man... Ill put mah dick in yer ear and *uck what you heard! LOL
Try it sometime brother.... We are talking about the 450 series here, not the 350 and under. Although I myself would have to agree that snaking a pan out of an F series would be much harder to do than an E series.
-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 9th of April 2009 01:39:41 PM
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
TOTAL - $2793.00 and thats IF there is nothing else that needs
Well, there's the problem... the published time for this job is only in the area of 13 hours... we charge 15.... our door rate is $80... We don't drain the coolant, we don't discharge the A/C... and if we did, we wouldn't charge an extra 3 hours for it.
Well, there's the problem... the published time for this job is only in the area of 13 hours... we charge 15.... our door rate is $80... We don't drain the coolant, we don't discharge the A/C... and if we did, we wouldn't charge an extra 3 hours for it.
I think the problem is you are lying to us all...
There is no publication that offers an oil pan replacement while the engine is still in chassis... I dare you to provide proof of your claims, however I wont hold my breath because you dont have such proof. You failed to break down your estimate which also shows that your pulling that number out of your ass, and thus why it stinks so bad.
I want the NAME or Publisher, page number or something that shows an oil pan replacement on a 1999 E450 with dual compressors and a 7.3 PSD that you claim to have pulled these labor times from... We are all waiting.
P.S. I was giving an estimate based on REMOVING THE ENGINE per the book as they are the ones whom claim the engine must be pulled. When you remove the engine the system MUST BE SUCKED DOWN as the condenser is removed. Quit trying to twist things around.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
I was just thinking... Why would you need to suck down the AC if you're doing it in chassis? I've only done them out of chassis so maybe there's something I'm unaware of.
Rex are you charging for services you never even performed???
I never charged MY CUSTOMER to evacuate the system.
Please quote where I claimed to have charged for the evacuation of the AC system as it pertains to the job that I did...
Otherwise please refrain from cheap shots because I was giving an estimate bassed on removing the engine to replace the oil pan and not what I actually charged to do the job in chassis...
Dont be such a putz... Only you charge for work not performed.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
TOTAL - $2793.00 and thats IF there is nothing else that needs replacement which if you pull the engine you could pretty much factor in Motor mounts, hoses, and perhaps other things.
I think its clear to see you are full of shit PieKiller. I should also say that rusting oil pans have been a problem with Ford truck since back in the 80's.
Since I am a mechanic I dont mind that Fords used shitty steel to manufature their pans, because I get paid to replace them, however I would think Ford might have considered making the pan out of a better grade of Steel or perhaps Aluminum once they realized the pans were prone to rusting back in the 80's. Of course why would they bother? 99% of the time a pan wont rust out until after the warranty.
Boy dont you look like a putz! Trying to quote the labor cost for an F450 truck rather than an E450 Cube Van... Did you add in the dual compressors? I bet not.
You should also NOTE that warranty time pays quite a bit LESS than regular book time. This is because most vehicles under warranty do not classify as Severe Service, as there is less miles and the vehicle is "Newer". By the time I see them they have well over 180K miles. You dealer boys cant handle working on older engines because you have been spoiled working on new stuff. Boy it must be nice to fix nice new clean engines... You would think that nice new clean engines shouldnt need to be fixed, but then again we are talking about a Fix Or Repair Daily.
Boy you have really raised my blood presure today PieEffer!
-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 8th of April 2009 06:02:21 PM
Geez Rex, a bit testy today are we? I just assumed that you charged your customer everything you stated above as you were so adimate about how all the labor is rightfully yours whether you did it by the book or not. How the fuck am I supposed to know otherwise?
PowerStroker wrote:Geez Rex, a bit testy today are we? I just assumed that you charged your customer everything you stated above as you were so adimate about how all the labor is rightfully yours whether you did it by the book or not. How the fuck am I supposed to know otherwise?
I guess you could have read the thread. LOL
If you had, you would have realized that I did the job for a very fair price, and I was using the estimate above to dis-credit PieKillers estimate that he pulled out of his ass.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
It'd be the same amount of work to do a 350 super duty van as a 450, isn't it?
Springs are different, some other "increased towing capacity" components are different, don't think the front frame section/body is any different?
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
Yeah BAH they are. I dont know why but for some reason I was thinking the 450/550 had the fold over hood.
Removal of the pan from the F series truck would be a miserable cock sucker. I had the entire top end off my F250 so I know it can be done. The E series allows access to the back of the motor via the dog house, which makes like substantually easier.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
6.0 pan can be done in chassis - actually the manual specifies that way, if I recall rightly. I'm too lazy to look it up, and I've been home for about 2 hours and don't work tomorrow, so you know what that means.
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
Big Angry Hillbilly wrote:6.0 pan can be done in chassis - actually the manual specifies that way, if I recall rightly. I'm too lazy to look it up, and I've been home for about 2 hours and don't work tomorrow, so you know what that means.
I understand the oil pan on the 6.0 F-series is no problem in chassis given the fact that the "Bedplate" consist of most of the pan on the 6.0 engine, however I was mearly trying to imply that on a 7.3 liter F-series truck you may be able to attain the needed lift space needed by pulling the turbo, albeit the job would suck.
We regards to you not having to work tomorrow I can only assume that you will spend the night drinking yourself into a drunken stuper. LOL
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
You won't find a publictation that gives you an in chassis time to do this repair, since it isn't supposed to be possible.
You're not the only one that does these oil pans in chassis. You'll find most don't do it, but we have a nearly perfect success rate doing it in chassis, and that's how we've been doing it for years. And, FWIW, my mafia friends don't agree with me doing it that way either... so don't think you're too special.
I'm not going to tell you how long it takes me to do the job, since you (being the worlds greatest tech) are not going to believe it anyway.
When I get back to work, I'll print up a copy of the invoice of one of the recent ones we've done, so you can roll it up, shove it up your ass and hopefully get papercuts on your sphincter.
-- Edited by PieKiller on Friday 10th of April 2009 06:59:44 AM
Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are.
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
