Got a 1997 Ford F250 pickup with the 351W engine 4X4 that was towed in at the begining of the week. Customer had the truck at Percision Tune for awhile and they replaced the TPS, Ignition Coil and also the Distributor Pickup. Customer claimes that he didnt even get home before it died.
Anyway he towed the truck in and when I first inspected it the truck turned over very slow, clicking at times rather than starting. Also strange was that the fuel pump would run all the time with the key on, rather than kick on for a few seconds and shut off like it is supposed to. Checked battery power and it was still over 12 volts and the load test showed the battery to be in fair charge. Just to be sure I put the battery booster on it with the same clicking and slow cranking. I elected to perform a series KOEO PCM test. I got the system to come online for a test ONCE. It clicked the relays under the hood and even shut off fuel pump. I tried to start it however the connections were bad for the starting system and it would just click, dispite having a full charge and a booster attached to it.
Inspected the grounds and power leads to find that the main ground wire was attached to the exhaust manifold. Also important to note that on these trucks the ground wire also attaches to the right passengers side frame rail just under the manifold. The frame connection had some mushrooms growing out of it, so I replaced the entire ground cable, and also the positive cable. Starter was drawing major amps also so I elected to install a rebuilt starter.
Just incase anyone was wondering about the battery cables, they are pretty expensive. Fords wants close to $200 for both the complete positive and negative cables. I was able to make them for much less using two top post and two side post red and black cables costing a mere $5.99 each, plus it really looks nice too.
Anyway I tried to start the vehicle and it did indeed start and run, however it was not running very well and on the test drive it would bog down and sometimes pop back thru the intake. Decided to perform another KOEO test to see if any codes were coming on however the PCM will not communicate again and refuses to perform the test.
I am told this vehicle has gotten a new engine from a 1993 F250 and it could be possible that the engine harness with the injector plugs is a 1993 and the rest is for a 1997. This is about the only thing I can think of as I have gone thru and tested all the basics such as timing, firing order, fuel pressure, injector pulse, spark and battery voltage with everything checking out. The only problem seems to be that the computer will not respond and intermitantly or should I say ONCE it did. It was a damp humid day I might add. Vehicle was towed in, did not crank or run, but it does both now. Only thing is this damn computer. I am almost positive that if I could get it back online the truck would run as it should.
The harness number tags have long since falen off, so there is no real way for me to tell what year they are. I am considering just pulling the bulk head diagrams for a 1993 and a 1997 to match up the color codes on the wires.
Any other suggestions from the think tank?
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Cant be a shitty mechanic because he didnt bring the truck to you. But now that you mention it has smelled like shit in here every since you showed up.
How about giving some advice twards fixing the problem? Or is it way over your head? I am guess the latter.
-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 4th of June 2009 10:31:27 PM
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
As usual Pogo is MIA, HillBilly is changing parts and the rest of the crew is baffled. Guess this means that Ill have to show you guys how its done once more.
Appears that the STI terminal only has 3.4 V where as its supposed to have 5 or 12V. Voltage drop across the main ground to PCM after my efforts is 0.023 which is well under the allowable .1 - .5 which tells me something is odd with the low power at the STI port.
Another strange thing I noticed is that sometimes with the key on the computer will cycle the injectors. It sounds like a buzzing sound and for the past few days I could not fiugure out why it was happening. It wasnt untill I KEPT a noid light on one of the injector plugs that I realized this is what was happening.
I am still unsure about weather this system uses the BLACK or the GRAY ignition module, however it appears that the owner has one of each as spares within the truck. I only mention this because it appears that sometimes it will cease to fire a spark, yet other times it will work normally.
Still the computer has not been online since early in the week, even then it only lasted a brief time.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Well after getting the vehicle to start and run, not very well might I add, the customer elected to pick it up and drive it to another shop.
I found it very odd that the truck would start and run by removing the ignition spout connector, however the fact there was so much going on with this truck with regards to liability really did not bother me that it was being taken elsewhere for further repairs.
Given the many repairs made to the fuel system by someone else using rubber hose, the smashed in front fuel tank that was leaking, problems with the drivetrain hitting the bottom of the truck under acceloration, major exhaust leaks at the manifold, botched wiring at the coil (which wasnt even bolted down) dangling off a single pedistal mount, and finally the intermitant communication with the ECM, I think I may have scared him off.
Regadless the customer paid in full for the services rendered and dispite the lack of power he was very happy to see it at least running once more. I recived a call from the customer a week later stating that the TPS sensor was bad. I was somewhat shocked because he had just paid a local shop (Not ours) almost $120 for a brand new one, and all of our test to the ECM when it was communicating indicated no such problem. We even disconected the unit to ensure there was no feedback however a sweep test was not perfromed due to the fact it was brand new.
While we did get the problem with the cranking under control by fixing numerous bad grounds, including the main ground and power lead, there was still something else causing the ECM to act up. Given the fact they could not remember if the 1993 or 1997 harness was used and all of the harness part number tags missing we had to verify that everything was in order by cross checking the wiring digrams to several of the bulk head connnectors.
What shocks me most about the TPS sensor being at fault outside of it being BRAND NEW, was the fact that a TPS sensor would have never caused some of the problems we were seeing, such as the coil and injectors sparaticlly firing while the key was on, without having cranked the engine over. Not to mention we disconnected the TPS from the loop in an isolation attempt with no change what-so-ever.
I offered to sweep test the TPS for the customer as he was interested in persuing action against the shop whom installed it, however he was unsure if he got it back. I was also curious if the people whom repaired the fuel lines had criss-crossed the pressure and return lines, but there was no way I was going to open that can of worms due to the liability of having almost 10 foot of rubber hose on both the return and pressure lines, and the fact that I had to disconnect the front fuel tank fuel pump because it had been so badly crushed that the pump no longer worked and could have posed a possible risk as well.
So in the end the customer states that the TPS was a major contributor in the vehicle no running and the ECM flipping out, however I have yet to see the truck in the flesh to see just how "Well" it runs.
It was very nice of the customer to contact us with an update and I figured I would put the information out there just in case it could help someone else.
I would have thought that a TPS that far out of wack would have surley tripped a code for the TPS being out of range, however its entirely possible that it was a defect from the factory, if in fact that was the true problem.
Anyway, it just goes to show that just because a componet is new, does not mean it is not bad. We charged the customer for test to the fuel pumps, ECM and ignition systems and also making up a new power/ground harness that would have cost him $200+ for the harness alone from the dealer. Total repair cost were well under $300 and the vehicle drove itself out of here, mind you lacking power, but still much better than when it was towed in clicking and refusing to crank. We also repaired many faulty connections, re-secured the coil, set base timing, repaired his battery tray that was missing half the bolts causing it to sit sideways. He also claimed to have replaced the plugs, which were pretty fouled out when we inspected them, however we werent going to replace them until such time as the computer was back online and the intermitant spark/injector acutation was gone.
Hope this might help someone.
-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 17th of June 2009 03:20:55 AM
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
As usual Pogo is MIA, HillBilly is changing parts and the rest of the crew is baffled. Guess this means that Ill have to show you guys how its done once more.
Appears that the STI terminal only has 3.4 V where as its supposed to have 5 or 12V. Voltage drop across the main ground to PCM after my efforts is 0.023 which is well under the allowable .1 - .5 which tells me something is odd with the low power at the STI port.
Another strange thing I noticed is that sometimes with the key on the computer will cycle the injectors. It sounds like a buzzing sound and for the past few days I could not fiugure out why it was happening. It wasnt untill I KEPT a noid light on one of the injector plugs that I realized this is what was happening.
I am still unsure about weather this system uses the BLACK or the GRAY ignition module, however it appears that the owner has one of each as spares within the truck. I only mention this because it appears that sometimes it will cease to fire a spark, yet other times it will work normally.
Still the computer has not been online since early in the week, even then it only lasted a brief time.
I'm baffled...... you have a cranking problem but you get to the point where you are testing power at the self test input terminal?
You cannot perform voltage drop testing unless current is flowing in the circuit... and this is what you should have done with the starting system at the git-go.
Instead, you will once again put the cart before the horse.... and you will wind up with another truck instead of a payday.
Needing a poll on what you need to fix shows well honed diagnostic skills.... Unfortunately, your poll indicates an utter lack of any idea of what you need to check.... If you fix your poor cranking issue, there is every chance that you will fix some of the other concerns you are experiencing.
FWIW, I still spend most of my time cleaning up after misguided efforts such as these....
I am changing parts after the appropriate diagnostics have resulted in the replacement of said part REPAIRING the vehicle, let's get that straight off the hop here.
As for the chatbox down at the bottom there, I've already told you I live about an hour from your shop, maybe less. I was in Detroit, Romeo, and Clinton twp today, actually.
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
I'm baffled...... you have a cranking problem but you get to the point where you are testing power at the self test input terminal?
You cannot perform voltage drop testing unless current is flowing in the circuit... and this is what you should have done with the starting system at the git-go.
Instead, you will once again put the cart before the horse.... and you will wind up with another truck instead of a payday.
Needing a poll on what you need to fix shows well honed diagnostic skills.... Unfortunately, your poll indicates an utter lack of any idea of what you need to check.... If you fix your poor cranking issue, there is every chance that you will fix some of the other concerns you are experiencing.
FWIW, I still spend most of my time cleaning up after misguided efforts such as these....
Basics, mister.... think basics.
It doesnt take very much to baffle you Pogo, all but your other personalities on this forum have realized that by now.
Diagnosis must be done in the proper order. As I have already explained, the vehicle came in with poor connections. Of course we fixed the power problems before testing for a voltage drop. Did you fail to read once more?
What I find funny here Pogo, is your constant attempts to proclaim your book smarts, yet every time you are found wanting when it comes to the comprehension of what you just read.
By the book buddy... And thats why you fail each and every time. If you can not take the time to read what is printed, you best put the book down Pogo, as it wont help you any.
In the past I would have asked you questions pertaining to the job at hand to ensure you were not full of shit, but since I have already spelled it out, that my friend would be an absolute waste of time, much like your efforts with that Red truck.
Better luck next time.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
You really must be another one of Pogo's personalities, as clearly I got paid for my work and the job DROVE out of here. May I also remind you that it was towed in?
I am glad that your job allows you to travel to such wonderful locations as Detroit, Romeo and ClintonTownship. Perhaps you were trying to load up on some more American goods to take home to Canada?
Im sure that your job of replacing parts requires remedial skill, meaning a truck comes in making a grinding sound while traveling 70MPH on the front left drivers side. Could it be a wheel bearing? Most likely, and thats already been determined by the service writer whom figured it out 20 minutes before the keys landed in your hand, hence "Why the job was given to you".
Now chew on that for awhile. Then get back to me.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Jayzusss.... you are a piece of work... you can't fix an OLD truck... YOU run a cheap assed poll asking someone else to fix it for you.... and WE are the idiots?
My fuck, mister, you just don't get it, do you?
FWIW, as dealership techs, we are sometimes auditted by Ford Motor Company.... Amongst some of it's "rubber stamps" is one labelled "ineffective repair". Unlike you, we do not get the chance to perform unnecessary testing... we do not get the chance to bone our customers (matter of fact, here in Canada, if we ran a shop like yours, there is every chance that tradesmans and qualifications branch could rescind our journeymans certification).
With the amount of time and money that a dealership has invested in training a diesel tech, I can assure you that the last thing he is going to be doing is replacing wheel bearings.... we leave that for the untrained masses.... like you.
Jayzusss.... you are a piece of work... you can't fix an OLD truck... YOU run a cheap assed poll asking someone else to fix it for you.... and WE are the idiots?
My fuck, mister, you just don't get it, do you?
FWIW, as dealership techs, we are sometimes auditted by Ford Motor Company.... Amongst some of it's "rubber stamps" is one labelled "ineffective repair". Unlike you, we do not get the chance to perform unnecessary testing... we do not get the chance to bone our customers (matter of fact, here in Canada, if we ran a shop like yours, there is every chance that tradesmans and qualifications branch could rescind our journeymans certification).
With the amount of time and money that a dealership has invested in training a diesel tech, I can assure you that the last thing he is going to be doing is replacing wheel bearings.... we leave that for the untrained masses.... like you.
Hey idiot, you do realize that I posted up all the possible suggestions for that poll dont you? You do also realize that since I run a forum I post up some repairs for others to sink their teeth into right?
Well as usual you show up a day late and a dollar short.
No I dont expect you monkeys to fix or diagnosis my vehicles and I find it rather arrogant for you to come in here thinking that I do. Truth be known, I post up repairs to save people from idiots like yourself, whom proclaim to be an ACE of the trade when in fact you cant even read an entire thread to save your ass. You spend more time beating your chest and hiding behind Ford than you do trying to understand what is going on. Its likely because youre inadequate to even be offering advice, let alone be working for a dealership.
You suggesting that my repairs are ineffective is very funny, especially since I used to be an inspector. Could you please tell me what an "Unnecessary test" is? It seems you and many of the other left wing nuts in health care seem to feel that "Testing" is not important, yet you keep on going on about how important testing is on every other thread. It really makes you look like an idiot.
Another thing that makes you look like an idiot is your assumption that Canada is the only place they regulate automotive repair. Here in the states we also have a department that monitors mechanics, and they can also pull a mechanics license much the same as you have mentioned.
Your constant claims that we "Bone" customers are bad comedy, especially since you do it every day for a living. It wouldnt matter what the hell I did, you would still be in here acting like a jealous little wiener.
You want to explain to me how I "Boned" this customer? The truck came in and would only crank over 30% of the time, with the other 70% just clicking. His main ground wire was connected to the exhaust manifold, the frame ground had mushrooms growing, and the starter terminals were damaged by whoever installed it last. These problems were identified, cost of repair was quoted, and the repairs were performed. Once the juice was flowing it cranked 100% of the time and even started and ran however there were MANY other problems that required attention that quite frankly added up to quite a bit of money.
Instead of the customer authorizing repairs he wasnt prepared to deal with, he paid for our services and took it to someone else whom would overlook many of the "other" problems that posed a significant risk/liability. Of course he had our good diagnosis to tackle the problems at his leisure.
So tell me, how did we bone this or any other customer? I expect an answer.
-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 28th of June 2009 12:51:03 PM
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
The idea, sir, is to perform testing that is necessary... testing that is called for and is part of the logical process.
<Checked battery power and it was still over 12 volts and the load test showed the battery to be in fair charge. Just to be sure I put the battery booster on it with the same clicking and slow cranking. I elected to perform a series KOEO PCM test. I got the system to come online for a test ONCE.>
Once you determine B+, you would go to your non-functioning load with your DMM and compare that to B+. One would assume that you are conducting a proper volt drop test procedure. Instead of addressing the evident concern - an obvious concern with base electrical power - you opted to digress. You got the system to 'come on line(?)' once - out of how many tries?
A couple of things for you to mull over.... if a TPS is going to cause a no start, it is because it is shorted and pulling V_REF down.... yes, this will give you a no comm.
But the thing that is really bothering me is that you have taken a truck with fuel lines that have been "repaired" in a manner that does not reflect accepted industry practice and got it back on the street - and it certainly sounds like this is not an appropriate place for it to be...
Oh, so youre going to run off before it even gets sticky huh?
Ill buy your little Voltage Reference short that "Could" keep the ECM from communicating, however how many have you seen (be honest) that have produced that result? Now add in the fact that it was BRAND NEW, albeit not installed by me, but the facility was a reputable diagnostic center, and had he authorized my labor charges to pin-out the ECM with the break-out box, I would have found it. As it stands he had only paid for the repairs to the starting system and some test to the fuel, ignition and ECM, Battery/Charging systems, all of which were relevant test, given the conditions, dont you agree?
Now, with regards to the fuel system repairs, and getting the vehicle on the road... Here in Michigan I am only permitted to notate the bill, and even then the law will not allow us to use "Scare" tactics like "Hey dude should this go south the truck will blow up", no, were not allowed to do that. So the bill was so noted, along with all the other repairs that were needed. I cant "Make" people authorize work. If they decline repairs and pay what is owed, then I must release the vehicle, regardless what they do. We can order that the vehicle be towed, but ultimately once they pay the bill and take the keys, they can do as they wish.
Now was that so hard Pogo?
-- Edited by SELLC on Sunday 28th of June 2009 07:32:31 PM
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Don't fucking insult my skills. I'm not the guy that soaked a customer so hard he couldn't afford to pay for his truck to return it.
Service advisor diagnosed it? Please. Most service advisors couldn't poke their way out of a fucking wet paper bag with a pointy stick.
What do you want me to diagnose?
Pick something.
Next time I get a 6.4 with NO CODES and NO POWER, I'll ship it over to YOU to figure out, asshole. Or any other driveability concern that doesn't have codes. Hell, maybe something WITH codes - you've already proved you don't know how to work a PC/ED manual.
By the way - having a vehicle towed in, and it driving out is nothing really to advertise. It's a pretty common occurrence at my place of business. Usually because we fix things.
My motto isn't "I fix cars right, sometimes on the first try."
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were a kid?
Work doesn't bring me to Mish-again.
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
My goodness, you guys been in here pulling my chain for the past few months, downright busting my balls and I make a few wise cracks and feelings get hurt...
You guys can dish it out, but you cant take it.
Typical mechanic.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
For the most part, what's been dished out by the 'Mafia' has been the truth.
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
Guess all them years at midas with the "Change everything" attitude never wears off.
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We do PRECISION GUESSWORK based on vague assumptions and unreliable data of dubious accuracy provided by persons of questionable intellectual capacity. Now what can we fix for you today?
For the most part, what's been dished out by the 'Mafia' has been the truth.
And what I have been saying is not?
If you or Pogo were at all "Seasoned" you could speak freely the bastard jobs that have been a thorn in your side. To make claims that this has NEVER happend in your carrer would mean your still a "Rookie".
I understand most of the parts you install are already re-built, and the idea of overhauling one of these engines would send any one of you screaming to your chummy sales rep for a trade in.
I got news for you Ford Dealer Mafia PUNKS! I plan to keep my Diesel, and the idea of building it bigger and badder than Ford Motor Company EVER could is something I would enjoy, if the damn thing would ever break ! I understand you dabble in 350's BAH, however I am sitting here WAIST HIGH in them. Same goes with the Mercedes-Benz M116-M117 Engine. In another 100K miles when I feel this truck has worked off the money it cost to fix it, I look FORWARD to it. Matter of a fact Im considering helping speed the process with rediculous performance enchancments.
You guys dont realize that I have paid out in labor, parts and storage more than what the value of the truck was, to the tune of about $18,000 when all was said and done, HELL, Ford Motor Company itself wouldnt even touch it for a penny over $6000.
So spare me any and all bullshit from now on and I think we can have some fun.
Not that it hasnt been fun, I just get tired of beating this dead horse.
-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 2nd of July 2009 12:04:04 AM
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
