According to PowerStroker replacing the ICP sensor and it's harness is a cure-all for everything, be it a bad wheel bearing, a bad exhaust or even neglect.

Don't try arguing with him because he works for Fords and has a very high opinion of himself.

I myself like the 6.0, I like the sound it makes (nice and loud unlike these new diesels that run quiet). I also like the turbo whistle (best on the 2003s).

One thing I can say about the 6.0 is that they cost a lot to fix so it's cheaper to take good care of them thru preventative maintanice than have to fix things due to neglect. The lower end of a 6.0 is damn near bullet proof.

Ford's failed by making the confines that a 6.0 has to sit in too tight for a Diesel engine. In my opinion access and ease to service should have been paramount, even if that meant designing the F250 and up with a detachable front clip, rather than having to hoist the entire cab off the frame.

We have a lot of good info on the 6.0 liter engine, if you register as a member you can access the Ford truck forums. Lots of good info in there, so much in fact Ford dealer techs come in here and piss and moan about letting the secrets out.

One piece of advice I can give you is this... Until you have the truck sorted I would not rely on it if you own a business that requires a HD truck. Once it is sorted it's pretty reliable if you maintain it. Fords mislead a lot of people by advertising these trucks as maintenance free, which many regular folks misinterpreted as not needing regular service.

PowerStroker wrote:

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I'd have had it done in less than a day for a fraction of what was spent, but that's ok, nobody ever expected you to play at the delaer's level anyway.

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Is that why Ford Motor Company had to buy back so many Ford PowerStroke 6.0 diesel trucks?

I think the reason Fords had to buy back so many 6.0 diesel trucks was because when they were new the law stated that if a vehicle went back so many times under warranty the "lemon" law was in effect, regardless if dealership techs felt otherwise. A BUY BACK UNDER THE LEMON LAW CAN ONLY HAPPEN AS A RESULT OF DEALERSHIP TECHS NOT FIXING THE PROBLEMS WHILE IN FOR SERVICE! A LEMON LAW BUY BACK IS NOT THE FAULT OF FORD MOTOR COMPANY, IT IS THE FAULT OF THEIR TECHS NOT KNOWING HOW TO FIX A VEHICLE AND SAID VEHICLE RETURNING TO THE DEALERSHIP AN EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF TIMES.  

So you can take your statements about operating at the dealership level and stuff that right up your arce! IT WAS SHITTY DEALERSHIP TECHS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR LEMON LAW BUYBACKS!

Ford Trucks & SUVs Recalled for Safety Reasons

Do you (or did you) own any of these potential lemon Ford trucks or lemon SUVs:

• 2004 Ford F-250 Super Duty Pick-Up Truck
• 2004 Ford F-350 Super Duty Pick-Up Truck
• 2004 Ford F-450 Super Duty Pick-Up Truck
• 2004 Ford F-550 Super Duty Pick-Up Truck
• 2004 Excursion
• 2004 Ford E-350
• 2005 Ford E-450
• 2005 Ford F-250 Super Duty Pick-Up Truck
• 2005 Ford F-350 Super Duty Pick-Up Truck
• 2005 Ford F-450 Super Duty Pick-Up Truck
• 2005 Ford F-550 Super Duty Pick-Up Truck
• 2005 Excursion
• 2005 Ford E-350
• 2005 Ford E-450

Also being investigated:

• 2003 F-Series Super Duty Trucks.

Ford has announced that it is recalling 206,000 vehicles, most of them the large Ford Pick-Up Trucks and SUV vehicles, to fix safety defects that include sudden stalling of diesel engines.

About 180,000 6.0 liter diesel engine equipped vehicles are plagued with potentially faulty fuel injection control modules, apparently. Ford has admitted that it has no idea what percentage of the vehicles are affected with the known defect.

Ford reports that on those defective vehicles the control module wiring harness rubs against an engine bolt and some wiring terminals were not put together properly, resulting in electronic problems that can interfere with engine operation and cause stalling, among other things. Ford admits that if the vehicle stalls, it might not start again.

Ford admitted that it started receiving complaints back in 2004 shortly after the 6.0 diesel engine starting being shipped with the new vehicles.

Ford started an investigation into the stalling problem at that time, and the Federal Government started its own investigation in October 2004.

Incredibly, Ford has reported that Fords investigation has demonstrated that the reported stalling incidents in the affected vehicles do not present an unreasonable risk to safety. It is hard to understand how driving down the highway at 65 miles an hour and the vehicle stalling on you does not present an unreasonable risk to safety, unless you happen to be sitting at a desk in Detroit and not behind the wheel of the vehicle itself, one might suppose. Curiously, Ford has advised the Federal Government that Ford does not plan to make a statement to the media about the recall. Apparently the Federal Government is not serious enough about stalling defects to make them do it, either.

Ford is still investigating engine performance issues with the same diesel engine model in its 2003 truck line.

In addition to this recall, the Federal Government has announced that Ford also will recall almost 80,000 trucks from the 2005 model year because the fuel line may separate from the main fuel bundle, which can also cause engine stalling or fuel leaks, possibly resulting in a fire.

The Federal Government reports that this recall will involve the 2005 Ford F-250, F-350, F-450, and F-550 Super Duty Pick-Up Turks that are equipped with the 5.4 or 6.8 liter gasoline engines.

Once again, Ford seems to be trying to prove that it can recall vehicles just as well as anyone else.

Link- http://www.ohiolemonlaw.com/safety-recall-11.shtml

-----------The Dealers Level ------------------------------------------------------>

According to Automotive News this afternoon,...

James and Penny Schrader have bought Fords faithfully for 30 years.

But persistent problems with the Power Stroke diesel engine in their 2004 F-250 pickup have unraveled three decades of brand loyalty. The Schraders, both 63, put a second mortgage on their home in Linden, Mich., to buy the $45,000 truck. Now they say they'll probably never buy another Ford.

"My husband wouldn't look at anything else," says Penny Schrader of their pickup. "But I don't care how good their product was in the past. They haven't treated me well as a loyal customer."

The Schraders aren't alone. Ford Motor Co. has been sued at least 58 times by consumers who bought 2003- and 2004-model Power Stroke trucks. The company also has fielded more than 12,000 consumer complaints, according to Ford's internal warranty data.

Not a minor flaw

This isn't a minor flaw that Ford can dispatch with basic service. The Power Stroke's warranty repair costs are battering Ford's bottom line. In a conference call with Wall Street analysts last March, a company executive acknowledged that Ford's diesel-powered super-duty pickups suffered from quality problems.

Ford has declined to estimate the cost of fixing those defective Power Stroke engines. But Ford has acknowledged that its warranty costs ballooned by $500 million through the first nine months of 2005, compared with the same period a year earlier.

Ford says it is honoring the engine's five-year, 100,000-mile warranty and doing everything it can to repair it. And newer versions of the engine in late 2004- and 2005-model pickups are more reliable.

But the problem will continue to fester. Ford already has sold more than 384,000 diesel trucks with potentially defective engines. And customers like the Schraders appear ready to abandon the brand.

Fixing its diesel problems - in terms of both engine performance and public confidence - is crucial for Ford because the stakes are enormous: Diesels account for about 25 percent of all F-series sales, and the 6.0-liter Power Stroke is a $5,000 option. The engine is offered on medium- and heavy-duty pickups, and had been offered on the discontinued Ford Excursion SUV.

From 225,000 to 250,000 diesel-powered F-series trucks are sold each year, at prices ranging from $30,000 to $50,000-plus.

If Ford can't put things right, the Power Stroke could cause a consumer backlash similar to that of Chrysler's problem-plagued Ultradrive transmission, which alienated minivan owners in the early 1990s.

"If this isn't fixed, and fixed right, and customer satisfaction put back on track, there will be fallout," says Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research Inc. in Bandon, Ore. "Ford will lose buyers to Dodge and General Motors."

Trouble from the start

The 6.0-liter Power Stroke engine has been troublesome from the day it was launched in the fall of 2002. It replaced a somewhat unrefined 7.3-liter diesel.

The powertrain was built by a longtime Ford diesel supplier, International Truck and Engine Corp., of Melrose Park, Ill.

For this version of the engine, International Truck designed a unique high-pressure fuel-injection system.

Most automakers use only electronic controls to operate the fuel injectors in a common-rail system. But the Power Stroke's fuel injectors are operated by a high-pressure oil pump as well as electronics.

According to several of the 150-plus complaints posted on the Web site of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, some trucks never even made it home from the dealership before the fuel injectors or turbocharger failed.

The engine also has been plagued with leaky fuel injectors, oil leaks, broken turbochargers, wiring harness troubles, faulty sensors, defective exhaust gas recirculation valves and bad computers.

Since the engine debuted three years ago, Ford has issued at least 77 technical service bulletins. That is far above average, even for a new engine. These bulletins tell mechanics how to diagnose and fix various problems.

By comparison, there have been eight service bulletins for GM's Duramax diesel V-8 and none for the diesel engine in the Dodge Ram truck. Both engines debuted at about the same time as the Power Stroke.

After just a year on the market, International almost completely redesigned the Power Stroke's fuel system, replacing or redesigning nearly 500 parts. That helped reduce the number of problems, but did not cure the engine of all its ills. Ford has voluntarily recalled the engine at least twice to fix various problems.

The troubles have caused a rift in relations between Ford and International.

The engine can be repaired and made reliable, says International spokesman Bob Carso. Engineers from Ford and International have fixed the problems that plagued the early versions of the engine, he said.

But Carso says the engine is extremely complex and requires "outstanding diagnostic capabilities" to properly identify and repair the faulty parts.

Less help from Ford?

When the Power Stroke's troubles surfaced, Ford tried hard to keep customers happy. In the summer of 2003, Ford took the unusual step of buying back 500 trucks, mostly because of fuel system problems.

But two diesel technicians say Ford has changed the way it deals with the engine problems.

"When they first started out with the 6.0-liter, Ford had a team that was looking over every bit of it and just doing whatever it took to get them fixed," says Mark Ward, a master diesel technician at Landers McLarty Ford in Bentonville, Ark. "And then that just shut off like a light when Ford found out how much losses they were having."

Ward contends Ford is trying to shift more repair costs onto consumers.

"We used to replace turbochargers left and right if the fins had any damage to them," he says. "Now they (Ford) won't accept a turbo back with any fin damage. They are saying if there is any (turbocharger) fin damage whatsoever, it has to be from a dirty air filter. You have to inform the customer that Ford won't pay for that. It's $700, plus the labor."

The fin is the part of the turbocharger that is driven by engine's exhaust system.

"When the 6.0 is running properly, it has much better performance than the 7.3 did," says Charles Ledger, a Ford master technician from Oroville, Calif. "Unfortunately, the 6.0 is plagued with sensor problems." Ledger dispenses advice on his Dieselmann Web site (intellidog.com/dieselmann/home.html).

Ford: No change in policy

Cisco Codina, president of Ford's customer service division, says Ford is not blaming consumers or trying to shift repair costs onto buyers.

"We have not changed any policies whatsoever as it relates to defective material," Codina says. "We don't try to put this blame on the customers. We will spend whatever amount of time and money necessary to help customers who have problems."

Not all of the Power Stroke's defects can be blamed on Ford and International. Consumers may cause problems by installing unauthorized parts that boost engine output. Aftermarket computer chips and exhaust systems can upset the delicate tuning of the engine and cause head gaskets to blow out, Ward says.

Last year Ford and International officials told Automotive News that the Power Stroke's troubles were over. But that turns out to be only partially true.

The engines made today have a better record for reliability, according to NHTSA (see story, above). But those 2003- and early 2004-model engines keep breaking down. And consumers are angry at having to return to the dealership time after time for "reflashes" - new software to be installed in the vehicle's engine computer or other repairs.

Getting better

The number of complaints for 2005 Power Stroke engines has dropped sharply compared with earlier versions since last year's redesign of the engine's fuel system.

But there still are thousands on the road that are not reliable - and may never be. Design deficiencies in some faulty parts, Ward says, have not been addressed.

"If you look at the part number at the new one you are putting on, it's identical to the one you are taking out," notes Ward, the Arkansas technician. "If you start out with something cheap, what do you expect to happen?"

Ward details the engine's troubles and Ford's technical service bulletins on his Web site, flatratetech.com.

The Power Stroke's troubles are reminiscent of Chrysler Corp.'s A-604 automatic transmission - dubbed Ultradrive - that was introduced in Chrysler minivans in 1989. The first versions of the electronically shifted transmission had more problems than a calculus book. Technicians couldn't fix them, consumers were fuming, and Chrysler ended up replacing thousands of transmissions under warranty.

But Codina says Power Stroke has generated more complaints than rival diesels simply because more diesel Fords are on the road.

Says Codina: "We try to address each and every (problem) as we became aware of them. I am sure I am not aware of all of them. But if they (consumers) come to us, we try to do our very best. But today if you have one or two problems, people are not very happy with you."

One more chance

As for the Schraders, three days before they were to appear before a Lemon Law arbitration panel in November, Ford offered to buy back their old truck, waive mileage costs and put them in a 2006 model.

After consulting with a lawyer, the Schraders took the deal. The couple left Michigan a few days later for a road trip West. But they are still angry with Ford because they had to spend a year trying to get their truck fixed.

And they will not cut the new truck any slack. If the new truck so much as sputters, James Schrader says he will pull into the nearest Dodge dealership and trade it for a Ram.

----------------The Dealers Level --------------------------------------->

Ten months after it rolled out a new diesel engine for heavy-duty pickups, Ford Motor Company faces a chorus of quality complaints from owners who are among the company's most loyal customers.

The 6-liter Power Stroke diesel V-8, built by a unit of Navistar for Ford, commands nearly half the US market for diesel pickups.

But a raft of problems and repeat trips to dealerships for repairs has left some owners upset, threatening Ford's efforts to rebuild a reputation for quality vehicles.

"You don't know when the truck's going to go or not," said Matt Steffen, a F-250 Power Stroke owner in Florida.

"You can step on the gas one day and it will go really well, and the next day you step on the gas and it won't go at all".

Soon after the new engines went on sale last November in heavy-duty Ford pickups and the Ford Excursion sport utility vehicle, owners started reporting problems.

Among the costliest is diesel fuel seeping into the engine's oil supply in amounts large enough to ruin the engine.

Other complaints included engines that ran rough or stalled, lack of power at low speeds and harsh shifts. The complaints caused Ford to announce a recall of the Power Stroke in April to reprogram the engine's computer controls and replace a fuel injection sensor.

Even after the recall, several owners continued to suffer problems.

After promising fixes in April, Ford now contends the problems should be solved soon, and that only a small fraction of Power Stroke owners have suffered any trouble.

Ford has even taken the step of buying back an undisclosed number of trucks - a rare move that automakers usually don't take unless forced by state law - to sate angry customers.

"We're sorry that it happened," Roman Krygier, Ford's group vice president for manufacturing and quality, said.

"We think those problems are behind us".

Pickup trucks are the only part of the US market where diesel engines have been popular.

In the past couple of years, General Motors Corporation and DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler arm have beefed up their diesel pickups to better compete against Ford, and Nissan Motor Company is considering a diesel version of its Titan truck due out in December.

But Ford expected to maintain, if not build, on its market share when the 6-liter Power Stroke was launched.

The engine makes 320 horsepower and 560 pounds-feet of torque, giving some pickup models enough power to tow nearly seven tons, while meeting tougher federal emissions rules ahead of schedule.

This year, Ford expects to sell about 260 000 Power Stroke-equipped pickups, which start at $27 000 and can reach nearly $50 000 when loaded with options. Steve Lyons, head of the Ford division, said in July that Ford's incentives on its diesel trucks are well below competitors' "because our diesel engine is as well received in the marketplace as it is.

"We dominate this business, and it is because the product is extremely strong," he said.

Many Ford diesel customers swear by their trucks, which are usually used as work vehicles or for hauling camping trailers or boats.

While it's common for a small number of new-vehicle owners to complain, the volume and persistence of chatter about Power Stroke troubles on Internet chat rooms is unusual.

That may be a reflection of the owners.

According to J D Power & Associates research, heavy-duty truck customers place a higher priority on reliability than any other type of vehicle buyer.

Two Power Stroke owners who asked not to be named because they were still negotiating buyback deals with Ford, said their trucks had a string of problems that couldn't be fixed.

One owner in the western US had his truck in the shop for more than six weeks.

"I wound up being used as the guinea pig, or I felt like it, trying to get my truck fixed," he said.

"I just got to the end of my rope".

"This experience has changed my attitude toward Ford dramatically," said another owner whose F-250 was in for repairs six times before Ford bought it back.

"I have lost all confidence in Ford's engineering department and think they should have never released a product with known issues".

To address the lingering complaints, Ford has issued three updates for the software in the engine's computers since February.

It has two more updates planned in a few weeks to address rough idling and how the engines adjust to air- conditioning loads.

Ford spokesperson Glenn Ray said the company believes the updates will cure most of the "drivability" complaints from owners, and that the earlier recalls solved larger problems such as diesel fuel mixing with oil.

But he also said some had complained about engines that were later found to be running up to Ford's standards, and said some owners may simply be unfamiliar with how diesels run.

"Obviously, there are some engines that are covered by the customer service program that we do need to fix," Ray said.

"But on some of these vehicles there's nothing wrong with them. The customers just perceive there's something wrong", So far, the troubles have not dimmed the enthusiasm of many owners.

Several customers who got buybacks appear to be replacing their old models with new 2004 versions.

"They're going to get it right," said Steffen, who's owned four Ford diesel trucks before this one.

"It worries me when". Reuters.

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/ford-struggles-with-diesel-truck-complaints-2003-08-18

------------------------ The real deal ------------------>

No PowerStroker, you never once touched my truck (thank gawd!) so you can not make the statements you are making. You are guessing, a typical dealership mechanic trait.

PowerStroker I realize you are just a grease monkey with not much skill in the ways of math, but let me teach you a thing or three about the REAL world.

But lets say for the sake of argument that the following work was needed on a 100,000+ mile truck that had been severly neglected,

8 Injectors = $2400.00 in parts (About $300 each back in the day). If the customer states he does not want to pay the labor to replace each injector every other month as they fall off then it makes sence to do them all at once, which most people do, Esp. if contamination was found in the fuel system.

1 turbo up-tube $300

1 ICP + Sensor wire $180

Two HD batteries and a starter $450

Oil, Air, and Fuel filters = $200

Cat Converter (no light at the end of that tunnel) = $900

HP Pump (roll the dice after 12K sludge and 2.4K in new injectors anyone?) = $600

Gee PowerStroker... We are up tp $5000 + in PARTS ALONE!

Not including, LABOR, Front and Rear brakes, Fuel pump, Tires, Service calls, storage, gaskets, oil, or anti-freeze.

So you are telling us all that an ICP will fix all of the above mentioned problems?That's pretty funny... In fact the only thing the ICP and plug did was shut off the check engine light... Still ran like shit, brakes were still grinding, exhaust was still leaking, converter was still plugged, still had a dead miss, still no power and gee, how about a nice glass of shut the fuck up?

Sad thing is PowerStroker is that regular and timely maintanance could have prevented a lot of what happend. Some people feel it's okay to go 12,000 miles at a time without changing the oil. It saves them money in the short term, but as the old saying goes, pay me now or pay me later.

Of course nothing will fix your problems PowerStroker. Your beyond repair. You know PowerStroker, the one thing we wont tolerate around here is someone who is full of shit or trying to pass bad information. Are you in need of another manditory vacation?