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Post Info TOPIC: 1989 F-250 4X4 loose steering


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1989 F-250 4X4 loose steering


I just completed a COMPLETE PITA of a job...upper and lower ball joints, all u-joints on front axle, rotors and pads, bearings, seals, everything form the pitman arm out to the knuckles is new as well.  I've had the allignment adjusted 3 times in the last 2 weeks and it still floats.

I'm not afraid to tell you that I'm afraid to adjust the steering box, as I have been warned of breaking a worm gear. 

Now, I've never taken it apart before, os it you were to tell me that I'd break the seal to the dangle bearings just past the muffler u-joint coming out of the steering box, I'd believe you.

The truck is rolling on a new set of 33" BFG A/T, has 4:10 gears, 302, 5 speed, etc...

What is my next step?  the steering is still loose and floats and is driving me nuts!!

Thanks,

Jon

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1989 Ford F-250 302 4X4
1987 Mercedes-Benz 560sl
1986 Mercury Cougar
1988 Ford F-250 460
2016 Jeep Compass



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Sounds like you replaced everything! But just to be sure lets run down the list.

I seen you replaced the ball joints, and everything in between however was the idler arm checked/replaced? How about the steering dampner? A assume you tackled the inner and outer tie rod ends too?

If all of that was handled, then you perhaps you may have bigger problems. Alignments have always been a PITA on the older trucks. Just be glad you have ball joints rather than king pins! LOL I always hated doing king pins on the Fords.

I had 35's Super Swampers on the 03 Super Duty and while they were a little too big for the truck it did not float, well for Bias Ply it didnt float more than expected anyway. Loud as all hell though.

Getting a good alignment on your year is rather hard. Check your steering box by leaving the vehicle off with the key in the on possition. Move steering wheel side to side. How much free play is there from side to side? This could indicate a bad rag joint and or gear box.

There is also another thing that I noticed with the older F series trucks. Once I had an older F series with bigger tires and it tore apart the cross member from the frame! It was hard to find because the area is well hidden while the engine is installed. Here is the link   http://autotrend.activeboard.com/index.spark?aBID=91042&p=3&topicID=17141083

I'm sure we can get it figured out. Trust that there are people here just dying to correct me if I am wrong.

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SELLC wrote:

Sounds like you replaced everything! But just to be sure lets run down the list.

I seen you replaced the ball joints, and everything in between however was the idler arm checked/replaced? How about the steering dampner? A assume you tackled the inner and outer tie rod ends too?

If all of that was handled, then you perhaps you may have bigger problems. Alignments have always been a PITA on the older trucks. Just be glad you have ball joints rather than king pins! LOL I always hated doing king pins on the Fords.

I had 35's Super Swampers on the 03 Super Duty and while they were a little too big for the truck it did not float, well for Bias Ply it didnt float more than expected anyway. Loud as all hell though.

Getting a good alignment on your year is rather hard. Check your steering box by leaving the vehicle off with the key in the on possition. Move steering wheel side to side. How much free play is there from side to side? This could indicate a bad rag joint and or gear box.

There is also another thing that I noticed with the older F series trucks. Once I had an older F series with bigger tires and it tore apart the cross member from the frame! It was hard to find because the area is well hidden while the engine is installed. Here is the link   http://autotrend.activeboard.com/index.spark?aBID=91042&p=3&topicID=17141083

I'm sure we can get it figured out. Trust that there are people here just dying to correct me if I am wrong.




The rag joint is good and adding a steering damper is in my list of things to do...it's the lighter duty F-250, so it doesn't have the damper.  With the engine off, there is little to no play in the wheel...perhaps 1/4" at worst.  The rag joint stays solid with no slop.

Like I said, everything from the pitman to the knuckles has been replaced, tie rods, tie rod ends, etc...

The truck isn't lifted, and I have no intention of doing so.  33" is large enough for me, and it came stock with 265s...so they are only 1.2" bigger in diameter, not enough to change much of anything.



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1989 Ford F-250 302 4X4
1987 Mercedes-Benz 560sl
1986 Mercury Cougar
1988 Ford F-250 460
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I'd be worried about adjusting the steering gear on a truck this old too... but not because I'm a fraid of breaking a non-existant part.

While there is a "worm" in the steering gear, it isn't a "worm gear". It is, however, part of the recirculating ball nut... Rex tells me I'm not a real mechanic so you guys wil have to figure out the veracity of my claim... "Back in the day" we would actually overhaul a steering gear - requiring a certain amount of familiarity.

There are only two adjustments that you "MAY" be allowed to perform on any steering gear. These will depend on the manufacturer.

If there is provision, the first adjustment would be input shaft (worm shaft) bearing preload.... This would be measured with either a dial reading or beam type inch pound torque wrench. Care must be taken since this reading will be taken through the input shaft spool valve torsion bar...

But you exspurts already knew that.

Our last adjustment to the steering gear will be called "steering gear mesh preload over center"... Now...

I can explain this to you... but, other people will charge you money for the privilege. Since I am constantly reminded that I am a poor example, I. too, will insist on being paid for explaining shit you should already fucking know.

A steering box has what is called a "high point". There is a very real reason for this.

Shit... I forgot... here I am.. an amateur amongst experts...

I'll be quiet now... everything inside a steering box is magic.. there is nothing to know... it just happens.

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You're friggen killing me here!! LMAO!!

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1989 Ford F-250 302 4X4
1987 Mercedes-Benz 560sl
1986 Mercury Cougar
1988 Ford F-250 460
2016 Jeep Compass



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Pogo is kept around here for his comedic value. He has very little to offer in the was of mechanical skill. He's the head bullshitter at his dealership.

Getting back to the problem at hand, it would seem that if there is very little play when the key is off, the rag joints or baby u-joints on the steering shaft can be ruled out.

Pogo would like us all to think Ford has some "Magic" going on inside the steering gearbox but trust me when I say he has very limited knowledge when it comes to anything outside of replacing a part. Pogo and his dealer flunkies just replace parts, they do not rebuild them. You should also know that somewhere in this forum Pogo has stated that his skills were limited and the thought of working on a Mercedes "darkened his driveway". He would like to think we dont know the diffrence between a rack and pinion and steering gearbox. He all but forgot about the shaft that goes from the steering column down to the steering gearbox.  

It sound like you have yourself an interesting problem there. You might want to start the truck up and move the steering wheel from side to side while its running to see if there is excessive play when the power assist is active (PS pump). If that nets a good result it may be something to do with an improper alignment.

Where are you taking the truck for the alignement? I have seen a lot of shops that lack the skill needed to opperate this kind of equipment and some simply cant afford to keep it up as the flunly mechanics fail to properly install the projector heads to the rims. What kind of equipment are they using?

How long have you had the 33 inch tires? I too had a set of 295 series Toyo AT tires on my truck prior to the 35 Super Swampers. Is it possible its just the bigger tire that could be causing it? When you say its floating, do you mean that its wandering or just feels loose? At what speed do you notice it?



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PogoPossum wrote:
I can explain this to you... but, other people will charge you money for the privilege. Since I am constantly reminded that I am a poor example, I. too, will insist on being paid for explaining shit you should already fucking know.

Shit... I forgot... here I am.. an amateur amongst experts...

I'll be quiet now... everything inside a steering box is magic.. there is nothing to know... it just happens.

How does that go again Pogo?

All hail the mighty dealership! The best advertising campaign Rex ever had!

What Pogo really means to say is "I can explain this to you, but typing stuff word for word out of a manual doesnt really show I know what I am doing."


 



-- Edited by SELLC on Saturday 20th of February 2010 05:38:56 AM

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SELLC wrote:

 

Pogo is kept around here for his comedic value. He has very little to offer in the was of mechanical skill. He's the head bullshitter at his dealership.

Getting back to the problem at hand, it would seem that if there is very little play when the key is off, the rag joints or baby u-joints on the steering shaft can be ruled out.

Pogo would like us all to think Ford has some "Magic" going on inside the steering gearbox but trust me when I say he has very limited knowledge when it comes to anything outside of replacing a part. Pogo and his dealer flunkies just replace parts, they do not rebuild them. You should also know that somewhere in this forum Pogo has stated that his skills were limited and the thought of working on a Mercedes "darkened his driveway". He would like to think we dont know the diffrence between a rack and pinion and steering gearbox. He all but forgot about the shaft that goes from the steering column down to the steering gearbox.  

It sound like you have yourself an interesting problem there. You might want to start the truck up and move the steering wheel from side to side while its running to see if there is excessive play when the power assist is active (PS pump). If that nets a good result it may be something to do with an improper alignment.

Where are you taking the truck for the alignement? I have seen a lot of shops that lack the skill needed to opperate this kind of equipment and some simply cant afford to keep it up as the flunly mechanics fail to properly install the projector heads to the rims. What kind of equipment are they using?

How long have you had the 33 inch tires? I too had a set of 295 series Toyo AT tires on my truck prior to the 35 Super Swampers. Is it possible its just the bigger tire that could be causing it? When you say its floating, do you mean that its wandering or just feels loose? At what speed do you notice it?

 




Sadly, Manny Moe and Jack are the idiots that I allowed to handle the alignment, as well as the tire install.

I am leaning towards the camber being off, but they keep telling me it's fine.  I paid the $89 for the 1 year alignment package, where I can keep taking it to them to be done for a year.

I'm ready to take it to another one, and have them check the first store's work.



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1987 Mercedes-Benz 560sl
1986 Mercury Cougar
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Have they given you a print out of current alignment specs? It isn't enough that the settings are "inside the window". The left side and the right side do need to have a particular relationship to each other regarding road crown and front/rear weight bias can play a part in deciding what toe setting we choose.

Now... "what Pogo means"... is that Rex hasn't got the foggiest idea oof what happens inside a recirculating ball nut steering gear.. And that makes his advice at least suspect and quite possibly dangerous (this is steering we are talking about).

He is impatiently waiting for me to spill my guts about the simple YES -SIMPLE shit happening inside the box. He will state that I don't know what is going on in there... but he wont tell you either ( for one good reason).

Now... you originally stated that your steering was "loose"... one might clarify that and ask a few  questions...

Is the steering loose as in there is a lot of lost motion in the wheel... at rest, can you move the steering wheel through a large arc without any apparent movement at the front wheels? Does the front of the truck shift side to side when doing this?

Does the truck need to be moving to feel the looseness - does the truck wander or exhibit signs of memory steer (the truck will tend to pull left after a left turn and right after a right turn... can feel like wander in some cases).

Rex has some sort of problem with me ( something like penis envy, I guess) but I'm sure we can sort out your concern...

PM me if you like....

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Its 10:45pm Saturday night... Pogo's booze must be kicking in...



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Sure... them virgin Ceasars pack a lot of punch... awwwwww, did I spoil your fun?

You, sir, are just fucking amazing....

You still haven't told us.... why wont your daddy hire you?

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Manny, Moe and Jack



You know what kind of alignment you get from these guys?



I dont know about you JP, but the whole bring it back as many times as you want in a year thing just seems to me like they might not be offering a quality alignement. I can think of only one reason I would let someone work on my car,





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PogoPossum wrote:


You still haven't told us.... why wont your daddy hire you?


What's to say he hasnt offered and I declined?

I think I have already been over this before. You got some reading to do Pogo.


 



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PogoPossum wrote:

Have they given you a print out of current alignment specs? It isn't enough that the settings are "inside the window". The left side and the right side do need to have a particular relationship to each other regarding road crown and front/rear weight bias can play a part in deciding what toe setting we choose.

Now... "what Pogo means"... is that Rex hasn't got the foggiest idea oof what happens inside a recirculating ball nut steering gear.. And that makes his advice at least suspect and quite possibly dangerous (this is steering we are talking about).

He is impatiently waiting for me to spill my guts about the simple YES -SIMPLE shit happening inside the box. He will state that I don't know what is going on in there... but he wont tell you either ( for one good reason).

Now... you originally stated that your steering was "loose"... one might clarify that and ask a few  questions...

Is the steering loose as in there is a lot of lost motion in the wheel... at rest, can you move the steering wheel through a large arc without any apparent movement at the front wheels? Does the front of the truck shift side to side when doing this?

Does the truck need to be moving to feel the looseness - does the truck wander or exhibit signs of memory steer (the truck will tend to pull left after a left turn and right after a right turn... can feel like wander in some cases).

Rex has some sort of problem with me ( something like penis envy, I guess) but I'm sure we can sort out your concern...

PM me if you like....



No printout...I don't think the pimple infestation on legs could operate a printer...

Correct on the fact that the truck has to be in motion to feel it...it floats.  I know fords are notorious for this, I've owned them in the past, but this one isn't right.

 



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1987 Mercedes-Benz 560sl
1986 Mercury Cougar
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I think its supposed to have something like 1/8 inch towed in to compensate for road crown. It's amazing how screwed a steering system can feel when the alignment is off.

The camber adjustment on these trucks is a joke anyway. There is basiclly a cam bushing in the top that the ball joint goes thru. This is basiclly all the camber adjustment you got. Caster I would imagine is adjustable by shimming the radius arm bushings.

If you just had the ball joints replaced there is a good chance the camber is off. If all the steering linkages and tie rods have been replaced I gurantee the Toe is off. The Caster shouldnt be an issue.

Keep an eye on your front tires. If it feels that bad I am willing to bet its going to show signs of tire wear very soon.

No print out usually means they dont have a computerized alignment machien. You could just ask them what they are setting the toe at. They should reply about 1/8 inch toe in without even having to look.

Good luck. Sounds like the problem cropped up after you had the suspension work/tires/alignment done. Therefore I think its safe to say the steering gear box may be okay.

I also checked Mitchells for the alignment specs and found that depending on how many inches lift you have, the alignment specs change. So if you got a little lift, best to let them know as they may be clueless. They have spec's on up to 5 inchs of lift on Mitchells, but then again they should have all that on their computerized alignment machien also.

So you know the exact toe in reading according to the book should be 1/32 regardless of the lift.

 

-- Edited by SELLC on Monday 22nd of February 2010 09:42:44 PM

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SELLC in his infinite stupidity wrote:

"I think its supposed to have something like 1/8 inch towed in to compensate for road crown."



I'm going to beat Pogo to the punch here and ask exactly how you can compensate for road crown with toe?

A real mechanic would know that whether you're toe'd in or toe'd out, the extent of your toe angle is going to be the same on both sides.  As a result, toe will never be the cause of a pull to either direction.  Toe can cause problems with steering stability, clear vision, and chopped tires... but not a pull.

Most trucks like an extra 1/2 degree of positive CASTER on the right side to compensate for road crown, though in my experience those old Ford TTB suspensions run best when the caster is equal on both sides. 

 



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Oh I see... So the book is wrong huh PowerStroker? Pogo aint going to like hearing that.

I dont think he was talking about a pull... He clearly states that it FLOATS! A well known cause of an improper alignment.

We could go around and around all day, but I think the guys alignment is off.

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Show me where in a book it says that toe is used to compensate for road crown.

I wasn't referring to this specific vehicle as I generally try to avoid diagnosing things over the phone or internets.  Sure a floating concern can be caused by alignment... it can also be caused by not having a properly adjusted steering gear, or worn steering linkages, or binding 4x4 u joints, or loose wheel bearings, or a lockout hub engaging intermittantly, or shitty tires, or the nut behind the wheel.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Tuesday 23rd of February 2010 04:21:27 PM

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I am sorry PowerStroker... I forgot... Your a dealer guy and thus need spoon feeding.

In the BOOK it says 1/32 TOE IN... Normal people would understand that the toe "IN" is to compensate for a slight road crown, otherwise both would be zero.

You can argue it all you want, but the manuals spec sheet takes in to account that the reader has an understanding of the system prior to service. For guys like you a read thru the System Theory section, prior to reading the specs may be helpful in gaining insight as to WHY.

Yes it's hard to diagnose problems over the internet, but the bottom line is this... If loose steering componets were the problem, Manny Moe and Jack would have likley replaced them prior to doing the alignment. Now that they have run out of parts to replace, they need to figure out how to get the alignement straight.

Savy?


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SELLC wrote:

I am sorry PowerStroker... I forgot... Your a dealer guy and thus need spoon feeding.

In the BOOK it says 1/32 TOE IN... Normal people would understand that the toe "IN" is to compensate for a slight road crown, otherwise both would be zero.

WRONG MOTHAFUCKA  The 1/32 toe in spec has nothing to do with road crown, it has to do with the front wheels on a RWD vehicle to naturally want to toe out on acceleration. 

Do you actually believe you can adjust toe in such a way that it's toe'd in on one side and straight on the other ????evileye   You would be WRONG.

Road crown is compensated for by adding slightly more POSITIVE CASTER to the RF.  (or less positive caster on the LF)

You can argue it all you want, but the manuals spec sheet takes in to account that the reader has an understanding of the system prior to service. For guys like you a read thru the System Theory section, prior to reading the specs may be helpful in gaining insight as to WHY.

I actually went to school for this Rex, perhaps you should listen to your own advise about reading through System Theory.

Yes it's hard to diagnose problems over the internet, but the bottom line is this... If loose steering componets were the problem, Manny Moe and Jack would have likley replaced them prior to doing the alignment. Now that they have run out of parts to replace, they need to figure out how to get the alignement straight.

As I stated, it may be alignment, or it may still be a component issue.

Savy?

Yes I am, thanks!  Did you just now realize it?




 




-- Edited by PowerStroker on Tuesday 23rd of February 2010 09:51:55 PM

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PowerStroker you do realize a lot of vehicles do not have a caster adjustment dont you?

Given that little bit of information, its quite clear that using toe to compensate for road crown is the most practicle, as ALL vehicles have adjustable toe setting.

Check around for yourself. Most all cars are set slightly toed in on the RF wheel.

By all rights many would consider the older F150 series non-adjustable. They use a bushing that will deflect in diffrent driving conditions, so really caster adjustment on the radius arm trucks is somewhat of a joke anyway. Ford trucks arent known for needing a rotation every other oil change for nothing.



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Rex, if you're in a hole you should really stop digging.

Here you go:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/wheel_alignment.htm

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OOOOOH Rex got owned again.

I bet you sell a lot more tires shortly after you do an alignment huh Rex?

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I think Scrot just got owned! The kid didnt even spend the time to read the article, and neither did PowerStroker!

It says, "Steering pull that created by road crown can SOMETIMES be corrected by adding positive caster to the left front wheel"

Do you know why they say SOMETIMES? It is because many vehicles have non-adjustable caster, and thus require the compensation to be made on the toe.

It also states that "to compensate for conditions a little toe-in or tow-out can be added when the wheels are aligned depending on weather the vehicle is front or rear wheel drive."

While camber would be the preffered method of controling road crown on an expensive vehicle with both front and rear toe, camber and caster adjustments, many vehicles such as the F Series truck and many others have what many consider to be non-adjustable caster. 

The manual does not call for ZERO toe. It calls for 1/32 toe in because of MANY diffrent things such as inherant slop in the combined steering componets, and also, road crown.

It's very rare that caster is included in an alignement package costing less than $120, therefore most folks will also use the toe to compensate for the road crown. 

I guess we could lay this issue to rest with PowerStroker offering us the part number for the shims that would be needed to adjust caster on a 1989 F150.

In this case and application I stick by my statments of using a little toe in to compensate for CONDITIONS, such as road crown. If the F150 had adjustable caster I would recommend PowerStrokers approach. As it stands, there are no adjustments for caster on a 1989 F150, unless of course PowerStroker or Scrot can provide them caster shim part numbers...

-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 24th of February 2010 12:07:04 AM

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This thread highlights how the book smart dealership techs fail to understand, or adapt if you will.

 

Just recently I was quoted $800 for a wheel bearing replacement on my vehicle, plus it required me to leave the vehicle for the entire day, without a rental. I had the job done for $250 at a private garage while I waited all an hour and a half.

 

I think Seinfeld (Season 9 Episode 167) about sums it up,




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SELLC wrote:

I think Scrot just got owned! The kid didnt even spend the time to read the article, and neither did PowerStroker!

I told you to stop digging when you're in a hole Rex, you would be well served to listen to me.

It says, "Steering pull that created by road crown can SOMETIMES be corrected by adding positive caster to the left front wheel"

That's actually backward unless you're in Europe.  In the US we drive on the right side of the road and thus most roads are sloped downward to the right for drainage.  We would add more positive caster to the right side to compensate.

Do you know why they say SOMETIMES? It is because many vehicles have non-adjustable caster, and thus require the compensation to be made on the toe.

Toe ALWAYS equalizes.  There is no such thing as adjusting toe on one side only... Toe is adjusted as TOTAL TOE.  The reason there is an adjustment on both sides is for centering the steering wheel.

It also states that "to compensate for conditions a little toe-in or tow-out can be added when the wheels are aligned depending on weather the vehicle is front or rear wheel drive."

It didn't say ROAD CROWN Conditions did it?

While camber would be the preffered method of controling road crown on an expensive vehicle with both front and rear toe, camber and caster adjustments, many vehicles such as the F Series truck and many others have what many consider to be non-adjustable caster. 

I call BULLSHIT Rex, I've aligned a few trucks in my day, and I have been formally trained to do so by someone other than my daddy.  I even have a drawer of my toolbox with assorted alignment bushings for these trucks.

The manual does not call for ZERO toe. It calls for 1/32 toe in because of MANY diffrent things such as inherant slop in the combined steering componets, and also, road crown.

You are correct about the 1/32 toe in on RWD vehicles for inherrant slop in the steering components.  This was never in dispute.  THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A ROAD CROWN COMPENSATION.

It's very rare that caster is included in an alignement package costing less than $120, therefore most folks will also use the toe to compensate for the road crown. 

Most folks???  I've never met anyone else who would agree with that statement.  Because it's wrong.

I guess we could lay this issue to rest with PowerStroker offering us the part number for the shims that would be needed to adjust caster on a 1989 F150.

1980-1996F-100, F-250, BRONCO 4WD2.75 Max Degrees of CorrectionNoYes1119$46.99$43.70
1987-1996F-100, F-250, F-350 2WD2.25 Max Degrees of CorrectionNoYes1120$46.99$43.70
1980-1996F-100, F-250, BRONCO 4WD2.75 Max Degrees of CorrectionNoYes1119$46.99$43.70
1987-1996F-100, F-250, F-350 2WD2.25 Max Degrees of CorrectionNoYes1120$46.99$43.70
What part number do you want.  There are MANY companies that make these bushings, including Ford, and each company has their own numbering system.  It also matters whether it's a 2x4 or 4x4 as they use different caster/camber bushings.  And many companies have different part numbers for the different degree change required.  Just from an internet search I can tell you that the Superlift brand bushing number for an 89 F150 2x4 is #1120, and the 4x4 number is #1119

In this case and application I stick by my statments of using a little toe in to compensate for CONDITIONS, such as road crown. If the F150 had adjustable caster I would recommend PowerStrokers approach. As it stands, there are no adjustments for caster on a 1989 F150, unless of course PowerStroker or Scrot can provide them caster shim part numbers...

That truck does, and always has had adjustable caster.  Buy an assortment of alignment cams and act like a professional for once would ya?

Fuck, even Napa sells em Rex.

Superlift Adjustable Camber / Caster Alignment Bushings - Ford TTB

Product Code: K6SPL524.1




Here's what the Moog brand looks like:


And here's the Napa one:


Any Questions?



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Rex, sometimes it's actually better to have people think you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and eliminate any lingering doubt.

By the way, these bushings go on the UPPER ball joint. Often times the factory bushings only need to be turned slightly to make the offset hole adjust the knuckle for proper caster and camber, but in extreme cases a more extreme offset bushing is required. Napa is usually the cheapest place to get them, but any reputable shop usually has dozens of these laying around. We always keep the old ones from vehicles because odds are we'll run into a vehicle later that happens to need exactly that offset and we can save our customers money if we happen to have a used one we can trade with them.

Exactly how many alignments have you done anyway???

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How many alignments have I done? More than just a few. Infact I trained on a modified Rotunda rack with Hunter Light-Line projectors, back when you had to manually run out the heads. I have also used more modern equipment such as the Bear unit with lazer projectors. I am also certified in steering and suspension systems and I have been since 18.

What you fail to realize is the system is NOT BY DEFINITION ADJUSTABLE. Sure you could PURCHASE REPLACEMENT camber cams, but they really dont offer much in the ways of adjustment as the center hole is a DRILLED/FIXED possition. Take for instance the newer trucks, they have done away with these cams. They were a bad idea, and really should be called Camber cams that inherently effect caster. Rather than pushing the whole axle forward, these cams cock only the upper portion. It's the reason they got away from it. It does lead to excessive balljoint wear. I'm sure from the land of Ford trucks this kind of all-in-one caster/camber method is accepted.

So yes PowerStroker, there are some adjustments that can be made by way of purchasing new cams, however that seems more like REPLACEMENT than and ADJUSTMENT.
 
I just love how you try and flip it around because you were wrong about the Toe setting being Zero when infact it was 1/32. Perhaps you should keep collecting camber cams, in hopes that one day you will have collected enough to make a proper replacement.... er... I mean adjustment on the next one.

Anymore I have several facilites that perform alignments when needed. On some vehicles I even do them personally. And yes... Now days they ALL provide a computer print out.





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Oh by the way PowerStroker, here's another article from your friends at AA1CAR

http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfe1096a.htm

I think they reffer to camber adjustments on Ford's as "Corrections" rather than adjustments. Wonder why that is buddy? Note the other key word "Aftermarket". Since when did an "Adjustment" entail something from the aftermarket?

Quote from link above-
 

Another way to figure how much correction camber/caster correction is actually needed on these applications is to pull out the OE bushing, install a zero offset bushing, then recheck the camber/caster readings to see how far they are off from the preferred specs. Any corrections would then be made by installing an aftermarket bushing with the required number of degrees of offset.



-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 24th of February 2010 05:32:43 AM

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SELLC Wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's very rare that caster is included in an alignement package costing less than $120, therefore most folks will also use the toe to compensate for the road crown. 

PowerStroker wrote:

Most folks???  I've never met anyone else who would agree with that statement.  Because it's wrong.

Any Questions?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes PowerStroker... I have one more question for you buddy!

If these new aftermarket "Replacement" cams cost $45.00 each, and there are two on every front end, doesnt that come up to $90 in parts alone to "ADJUST" the caster?

Just how WRONG am I? Are you saying the dealership will buy these "Aftermarket" parts to "Adjust" caster and only charge $30 for the install and alignment?

Hell JP, NOW YOU KNOW WHERE TO TAKE YOUR TRUCK FOR THAT ALIGNMENT! Just print this thread and hand it to PowerStrokers service advisor as an Iron clad estimate!


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SELLC wrote:

How many alignments have I done? More than just a few. Infact I trained on a modified Rotunda rack with Hunter Light-Line projectors, back when you had to manually run out the heads. I have also used more modern equipment such as the Bear unit with lazer projectors. I am also certified in steering and suspension systems and I have been since 18.

Toe&go "alignments" don't count.  The old light-line system was obsolete before you were born.  Certified by who???

What you fail to realize is the system is NOT BY DEFINITION ADJUSTABLE. Sure you could PURCHASE REPLACEMENT camber cams, but they really dont offer much in the ways of adjustment as the center hole is a DRILLED/FIXED possition. 

You can often rotate the factory cams to obtain the desired adjustment. 

Take for instance the newer trucks, they have done away with these cams. They were a bad idea,

Super Duty trucks still use this system. even the brand new ones.

and really should be called Camber cams that inherently effect caster. Rather than pushing the whole axle forward, these cams cock only the upper portion. 

Rex, if they pushed the whole steering knuckle forward by the same amount on top AND BOTTOM then it wouldn't change caster or camber, just the vehicle's wheelbase.  For fuck's sake Rex, do you usually find a way to do that?  do your tires scrub against the fenders when you're done "aligning" something?  For that matter do you have a different wheelbase on one side of the vehicle as opposed to the other after you've gotten you're greasy fingers on it.

It's the reason they got away from it. It does lead to excessive balljoint wear. I'm sure from the land of Ford trucks this kind of all-in-one caster/camber method is accepted.

They still use this system on 3/4 ton and bigger trucks.  How the hell does this cause excessive ball joint wear exactly????  If you tell people that you work on Ford trucks, shouldn't you do it the way Ford specifies?
Even the older GM and Dodge trucks that had a solid front axles used this type of system.

So yes PowerStroker, there are some adjustments that can be made by way of purchasing new cams, however that seems more like REPLACEMENT than and ADJUSTMENT.

Many vehicles require the replacement of some kind of cam or shim to align.  This is not unique to old Ford trucks.  If you had a modern alignment machine it would even tell you this and give you part numbers.
 
I just love how you try and flip it around because you were wrong about the Toe setting being Zero when infact it was 1/32. Perhaps you should keep collecting camber cams, in hopes that one day you will have collected enough to make a proper replacement.... er... I mean adjustment on the next one.

I never disagreed with having 1/32 toe in on a RWD vehicle.  My point is that it has nothing to do with ROAD CROWN

Anymore I have several facilites that perform alignments when needed. On some vehicles I even do them personally. And yes... Now days they ALL provide a computer print out.

Printing out a shitty alignment doesn't magically make it good.


Oh by the way PowerStroker, here's another article from your friends at AA1CAR

http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfe1096a.htm

I think they reffer to camber adjustments on Ford's as "Corrections" rather than adjustments. Wonder why that is buddy? Note the other key word "Aftermarket". Since when did an "Adjustment" entail something from the aftermarket?

Symantics Rex, a correction is an adjustment.  You don't need aftermarket parts to do this, you can get OE FORD ALIGNMENT CAMS and I have several in my toolbox.  They are just so COMMON and in demand by decent repair shops that the aftermarket decided to produce them too.



Quote from link above-
 

Another way to figure how much correction camber/caster correction is actually needed on these applications is to pull out the OE bushing, install a zero offset bushing, then recheck the camber/caster readings to see how far they are off from the preferred specs. Any corrections would then be made by installing an aftermarket bushing with the required number of degrees of offset.


Or a Ford Bushing Rex, much like wiper blades, these too can be sourced OE or Aftermarket.


 



-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 24th of February 2010 10:58:26 AM

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SELLC wrote:

 

SELLC Wrote:

Yes PowerStroker... I have one more question for you buddy!

If these new aftermarket "Replacement" cams cost $45.00 each, and there are two on every front end, doesnt that come up to $90 in parts alone to "ADJUST" the caster?

Just how WRONG am I? Are you saying the dealership will buy these "Aftermarket" parts to "Adjust" caster and only charge $30 for the install and alignment?

Hell JP, NOW YOU KNOW WHERE TO TAKE YOUR TRUCK FOR THAT ALIGNMENT! Just print this thread and hand it to PowerStrokers service advisor as an Iron clad estimate!

We can get Ford OE bushings cheaper than that.  The Napa ones are even cheaper yet at about $15 each.  Usually we have so many laying around that we don't even need to charge the customer for them.  The way a truck alignment works at my dealer is a customer pays $59 for an alignment check that includes a toe adjustment.  If a caster or camber change is necessary it's an extra hour plus any needed bushings.   We tell the customer this up front and they have always been cool with it.
Are you suggesting a customer would prefer a flat fee that only covers a toe adjustment?  In my experience customers usually prefer fixing something correctly than just having someone go through the motions, make a printout, and charge them less.  I may not be the cheapest mechanic in town Rex...  I don't need to be.

I may not be able to fix your $6 haircut, but I'm pretty sure I can fix your $6 Alignment


 



-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 24th of February 2010 11:30:54 AM

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PowerStroker I understand you wish to argue the details, but what you fail to realize is I encourage it.

You can say whatever you want about aftermarket or OE cam bushings but the bottom line is I dont really care much for that design. Does it work? Yes, but then again so did the Ford Pinto for awhile.

I just love how you claim a full Camber/Caster and Toe alignment can be done for under $120 when the cams cost $45.00 each aftermarket. I hate to even ask what Fords would want for one of these things. Bottom line is you know your wrong, but you wont address it.

I also love how you try and use AA1CAR as a reputable web site, then you come to realize they were wrong regarding caster settings on the drivers side. It was YOU who introduced this AA1CAR website to us. Why dont you show us some REAL documentation from a reliable source such as Hunter or Bear.

You did say that the toe should be set at zero earlier, but you quickly edited that once you realized you were wrong.

Just like your ignorant claims that people should stop using Roloc disc to clean surface areas, yet you wonder why Ford techs are having problems with oil leak comebacks.

You also make silly statements such as the Light Line being outdated when infact its every bit as accurate as modern day equipment. Some guys (maybe even you) fail to realize that in this automotive business nothing has really changed. Yes people like you and Fords would like to think they have re-invented the wheel, when really it's all just the same old shit with a diffrent flare.
 



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SELLC wrote:

 

PowerStroker I understand you wish to argue the details, but what you fail to realize is I encourage it.

You can say whatever you want about aftermarket or OE cam bushings but the bottom line is I dont really care much for that design. Does it work? Yes, but then again so did the Ford Pinto for awhile.

You're not caring for a design doesn't excuse poor workmanship or a failure to follow proper procedures.

I just love how you claim a full Camber/Caster and Toe alignment can be done for under $120 when the cams cost $45.00 each aftermarket. I hate to even ask what Fords would want for one of these things. Bottom line is you know your wrong, but you wont address it.

I never said a caster/camber alignment could be done on one of these for less than $120.  In fact If I add it up it would come to about $238 including 2 new bushings.

I also love how you try and use AA1CAR as a reputable web site, then you come to realize they were wrong regarding caster settings on the drivers side. It was YOU who introduced this AA1CAR website to us. Why dont you show us some REAL documentation from a reliable source such as Hunter or Bear.

they had the best animations on a quick web search, I have no loyalty to AA1Car.  Except for that typo their information seemed correct to me.
As I read through their website again I can't seem to find that typo.  Perhaps you just misquoted them.  It doesn't matter, I know the material and suggest you educate yourself before you do another "alignment" on a customer's vehicle.

You did say that the toe should be set at zero earlier, but you quickly edited that once you realized you were wrong.

I never said toe should be zero...  Though it's possible some vehicles specify exactly that.  I edited my original post because my initial response was a little too complex, so I decided to dumb it down for you by leaving out the fact that FWD vehicles often specify a slight toe out.

 Just like your ignorant claims that people should stop using Roloc disc to clean surface areas, yet you wonder why Ford techs are having problems with oil leak comebacks.

Certain surfaces are ok for Rolocs.  The specific topic we were discussing were head and deck mating surfaces where Rolocs are not acceptable. 
6.0's don't leak oil from the head gaskets Rex...even if you do clean them with a roloc.  They have other problems though that can be severely aggravated by roloc cleaning.


You also make silly statements such as the Light Line being outdated when in fact its every bit as accurate as modern day equipment. Some guys (maybe even you) fail to realize that in this automotive business nothing has really changed. Yes people like you and Fords would like to think they have re-invented the wheel, when really it's all just the same old shit with a different flare.

The light-aline is only as accurate as the technician's perception.  Modern equipment greatly reduces human perception variables from the equation.  I wouldn't even align a radio flyer with a piece of shit light-line.
or a "modified Rotunda rack" for that matter.  My customers deserve state of the art equipment specifically designed for the procedure being done.




 



-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 24th of February 2010 12:49:49 PM

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You decided to dumb it down? LOL

I am glad I could help you brush up on your alignment skills but the fact remains that the adjustment cams are more for camber than caster. The fact remains that you only get so much adjustment out of the cams without having to replace them.

I know you would like to think I still use a light-line rack, however I only mentioned that because you asked how many alignements I had done. Just because your a rookie byatch and never used one you dont have to act like an idiot. I should also mention at this point that I was using the modified Rotunda rack back in 80's! When was it that you went to school for mechanics? I think its safe to say that I have been fixing vehicles much longer than you. To say a light-line rack was not state of the art back then, when the newer laser racks also use light is more than laughable, it shows you have no concept of the inner workings, likley because you have been spoon fed for so long.

You DID however say that the Toe adjustments were to be at Zero or as close to it as possible. What you called dumbing it down, was really you taking your foot out of your mouth.

I understand you have not worked on anything but Fords, so you really have not seen whats out there to make the judgement call regarding what I consider a bad design. It's also fair to say that the newer trucks do not use the exact same method to adjust caster, as these cam kits you listed fit only 1980-1996.

Then we also have the fact that the camber cams are only ONE way of getting more caster. If you read your beloved AA1CAR you would realize there are three ways to adjust caster, and you have only chosen to focus on the cams, which as I mentioned are very limited on the caster adjustment without replacement of the cams.

I will agree with you that most of the times were replacing faulty ball-joints camber can be adjusted with the factory installed cam bushings, but its a very premative means of adjusting the camber. Most manufatures have evolved, yet you contenue to razz me about an old school Light-Line alignement rack that I trained on, saying it was obsolete and out dated. Well guess what PowerStroker!? So is the design of your beloved F-Series trucks front suspension. Yet as OLD and OUTDATED as this adjustment design is "It Still Works".




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SELLC wrote:

You decided to dumb it down? LOL

It seems I end up doing a lot of that here.

I am glad I could help you brush up on your alignment skills but the fact remains that the adjustment cams are more for camber than caster. The fact remains that you only get so much adjustment out of the cams without having to replace them.

My alignment skills are top notch already.  These cams are equally for caster as much as they are for camber.  You can use them to adjust caster only, camber only, or a combination of both depending on which offset cam you get and how you position it.  These vehicles were aligned at the factory this way.  They don't all have the exact same cams in them even when they are new.  Speaking of which, you'd be amazed by the number of different possible diff carrier shims and select fit piston sizes a vehicle can have to make up for manufacturing tolerances at the factory.

I know you would like to think I still use a light-line rack, however I only mentioned that because you asked how many alignements I had done. Just because your a rookie byatch and never used one you dont have to act like an idiot. I should also mention at this point that I was using the modified Rotunda rack back in 80's! When was it that you went to school for mechanics? I think its safe to say that I have been fixing vehicles much longer than you.

Rookie!!! Please Bitch...  You are only a couple years older than me by age.  and about 30 years younger than me in terms of skill.  I saw a light align once.  It was collecting dust in the back corner of my high school auto shop in favor of the better but still obsolete hunter with the string connected heads and dot matrix printer.

To say a light-line rack was not state of the art back then, when the newer laser racks also use light is more than laughable, it shows you have no concept of the inner workings, likley because you have been spoon fed for so long.

Is it really being spoon fed to insist on modern equipment for fixing modern vehicles?

You DID however say that the Toe adjustments were to be at Zero or as close to it as possible. What you called dumbing it down, was really you taking your foot out of your mouth.

No Rex,  the Idea is to create perfect zero while driving down the road.  In order to accomplish this you need a slight toe in on RWD and a slight toe out on FWD vehicles to make up for normal play in the steering components.  THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ROAD CROWN.

I understand you have not worked on anything but Fords, so you really have not seen whats out there to make the judgement call regarding what I consider a bad design. It's also fair to say that the newer trucks do not use the exact same method to adjust caster, as these cam kits you listed fit only 1980-1996.

I wasn't always a dealer tech Rex, I've aligned other vehicles and still do as my dealer sells used cars of all makes and we often service them.  I only listed those cams because you only asked about a specific 89 F150.  The older trucks and newer Super duties have different part numbers but are the same type of thing, just a different size.  I'm really having trouble believing you had never heard of these since even the old Chev and Dodge trucks with solid front axles used the same type of thing.  Dana 44, Dana 50, and Dana 60 solid front axles aren't specific to Ford vehicles.

Then we also have the fact that the camber cams are only ONE way of getting more caster. If you read your beloved AA1CAR you would realize there are three ways to adjust caster, and you have only chosen to focus on the cams, which as I mentioned are very limited on the caster adjustment without replacement of the cams.

What exactly is your point?  This thread was specifically about an 89 Ford truck.  Certainly different vehicles have different suspension systems.  Certainly your Mercedes doesn't use anything like this, but these trucks can only have a caster or camber adjustment through the use of these cams.

I will agree with you that most of the times were replacing faulty ball-joints camber can be adjusted with the factory installed cam bushings, but its a very premative means of adjusting the camber. Most manufatures have evolved, yet you contenue to razz me about an old school Light-Line alignement rack that I trained on, saying it was obsolete and out dated. Well guess what PowerStroker!? So is the design of your beloved F-Series trucks front suspension. Yet as OLD and OUTDATED as this adjustment design is "It Still Works".

Much like the AAMCO brake lathe and the Briggs and Straton small engine.  The cam bushing method of adjusting solid axle trucks was designed right the fist time-a long ass time ago.  The same can NOT be said for that piece of shit Light Line machine, or you for that matter.




 



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SELLC wrote:

I guess we could lay this issue to rest with PowerStroker offering us the part number for the shims that would be needed to adjust caster on a 1989 F150.

In this case and application I stick by my statments of using a little toe in to compensate for CONDITIONS, such as road crown. If the F150 had adjustable caster I would recommend PowerStrokers approach. As it stands, there are no adjustments for caster on a 1989 F150, unless of course PowerStroker or Scrot can provide them caster shim part numbers...



^^^^^^^^^^ Remember this^^^^^^^^^^ ?

Have you learned your lesson yet Rex?

Eventually you will realize that I hide in the bushes and wait for you to step on your dick.  I make sure you're wrong and make sure I have proof.  Then I swoop in for the kill.  If you deny the fact that you are wrong, I keep on pushing.  You won't win Rex, I only pick fights I can win.  A political dispute with PowerStroker is a recipe for your own intellectual development.  A technical dispute with PowerStroker is a recipe to make you look bad on your own website. 

Pogo isn't exactly small change when it comes to technical knowledge either.



-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 24th of February 2010 09:34:34 PM

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If bullshit were music, this thread would be the Grand Symphony.

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PowerStroker wrote:
Have you learned your lesson yet Rex?

Eventually you will realize that I hide in the bushes and wait for you to step on your dick.  I make sure you're wrong and make sure I have proof.  Then I swoop in for the kill.  If you deny the fact that you are wrong, I keep on pushing.  You won't win Rex, I only pick fights I can win.  A political dispute with PowerStroker is a recipe for your own intellectual development.  A technical dispute with PowerStroker is a recipe to make you look bad on your own website. 

Pogo isn't exactly small change when it comes to technical knowledge either.


You hide in bushes? I can only imagine what you do while waiting in said bushes.
Your not swooping in for any kind of kill PowerStroker... It appears you are grasping at straws. You seem somewhat pathetic in that statement PowerStroker. Like your a little bit jealous.

Everything I have said is correct. While Caster is a well known way to compensate for road crown, not all vehicles have caster adjustments. The toe-in setting of 1/32 takes into account a small compensation for many reasons, none of which you have addressed.

Why do you think the manufature suggest a toe in setting of 1/32? Can you tell us the MANY reasons this would be done? Why not just set the toe to zero like you said earlier before you edited your post? There is a reason PowerStroker.

My statement was that a toe-in setting would help offset road crown and un-even road conditions. Your dumb ass swooped in claming that Caster is the ONLY way to compensate for uneven road conditions. For that you are WRONG.

My statement never implied that Toe was the ONLY method of compensation for road crown, just that when you see a vehicle calling for a toe-in setting, it's there to compensate for conditions. One of them is road conditions.  

Everyone knows why front wheel drive vehicles have a slight tow out, and that's to compensate for torque pull, however many front wheel drive vehicles use a Strut and thus have no caster adjustments.

Back when I was doing alignments there were not many front wheel drive vehicles. There was no computer screen that had little hash marks to work in-between. It was all about run-out.

I find it bad comedy that you fail to address the shims in the radius arm as another means of adjusting Caster. What you fail to realize is that when you are busy swapping out used cam bushings to make your road crown compensation your putting excessive load on the radius arm. You would also need to properly shim the radius arm bushing to use these aftermarket or modified cams, yet you have made no mention of that. Its because you are a dealership guy, you cant see past the manual. You lack comprehension skills and it shows.

It's a well known fact that the dealership overcharges for their services. You wont find that in any book either, but its true also.

And in closing we need only to look at your little statement that went a little like this - "I may not be the cheapest mechanic in town Rex...  I don't need to be." Who are you trying to kid PowerStroker? Your dealership takes the lions share of the labor money and feeds you the scraps. The dealership dictates the labor charges, NOT YOU. If you were any good at all, you would be collecting the lions share of the labor charges. As it stands you are not. 

PowerStroker, I may have confused you when I made the claim that a little toe-in on an alignment helps to compensate for road crown, but there can be no denying the fact you are spoon fed. IN EVERY WAY.



-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 25th of February 2010 03:08:25 AM

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PowerStroker wrote:



No Rex,  the Idea is to create perfect zero while driving down the road.  In order to accomplish this you need a slight toe in on RWD and a slight toe out on FWD vehicles to make up for normal play in the steering components.  THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ROAD CROWN.




Really PowerStroker? What effect do you think ROAD CROWN would have on this "normal play" in the steering componets if it wasnt toed in? Grow up already. I can't help the fact your unable to read between the lines.

Oh by the way.... A slight tow out on FWD vehicles is to compensate for torque pull.... OH-SNAP! Wrong again moose breath! You do know FWD cars PULL the car, while RWD PUSH the car? Perhaps you missed that lesson while trying to align your Raido Flyer wagon.

Here's another one for you PowerStroker- Caster corrections on Ford Twin I-Beam suspensions can be accomplished one of three ways: by replacing the same upper ball joint bushing as above on the 1987 and later applications, by replacing the radius arm bushing where the radius arm connects to the frame with an offset bushing, or by installing offset cam bushings where the through bolts attach the radius arms to the axles.

I thought you said caster adjustments were only made via the cam bushing? Maybe you should re-read this thread where I addressed this a long ass time ago!


-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 25th of February 2010 03:33:19 AM

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PowerStroker wrote:

Pogo isn't exactly small change when it comes to technical knowledge either.


You know what this sounds like to me PowerStroker? A cry for help!

Why didnt you just say-

OH POGO! PLEASE STEP IN AND SAVE ME BEFORE SELLC MAKES ME LOOK LIKE A PUNK.

 



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There's just no reaching you is there Rex?

Originally you say there is no way to adjust caster on these trucks, I proved you wrong, and now you're convinced there are 3 ways to do it.  But that makes ME wrong?

I'm going to spend the week thinking of another classy quote for this situation for you to add to the other thread.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Thursday 25th of February 2010 09:27:43 AM

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no

Re-Read the thread. Then if you still dont get it, read it again.



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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH REX THE WATERBOY GOT PWNED(<--CLICK THE WORD)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NICE ONE POWERSTROKER!!!!!!!!!!!  YOU SLAM DUNKED HIS ASS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEAL GOOD!!!!!!!!!


HEY REX!!!!!!!!!!!!  I CAN TOSS YOU ANOTHER SHOVEL SO YOU COULD DIG THAT HOLE EVEN DEEPER!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin

GONNA SIT BACK AND WATCH!!! AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH



-- Edited by stoma on Thursday 25th of February 2010 10:27:15 AM

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A tie rod has "Adjustments". A threaded rod with a lock nut or sleeve.



Traditional camber cams THE ONES THAT DONT HAVE TO BE REPLACED TO MAKE AN "ADJUSTMENT" are adjustable



The Camber Cams on a FORD TRUCKS/VANS are adjustable for "CAMBER" but require NEW CAMS to make "Adjustments" which they call a "Correction" for the CASTER.



I know this is WAY over Stoma's head, but I would never have pegged PowerStroker as being as ignorant as Stoma.

Stoma... What kind of things do you and PowerStroker do while hiding in the bushes? Is it you guy's opinion that a bird in hand is better in the bush?

I cant help it if you guys dont know a ball joint from a thermostat.



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PowerStroker wrote:

Originally you say there is no way to adjust caster on these trucks, I proved you wrong, and now you're convinced there are 3 ways to do it.  But that makes ME wrong?



PowerStroker I never said there is no way to "CHANGE" Caster on these trucks/vans. What I said is Caster is not ADJUSTABLE.

See nothing is impossible.... On vehicle without replaceable cam bushings to make Caster "Corrections" you could go as far as cutting the frame, radius arm or in a front wheel drive vehicle you could hog out the strut tower holes. Usually what it means when you have to do this sort of thing is that the vehicle's frame/unibody has been compramised, or serious modifications to the suspension such as a suspension lift has been done.

You are still a rookie PowerStroker....

I have a question for you PowerStroker... Does Caster increase or decrease on a Ford truck when you lift it say 2 inches over factory specs? Would one be able to get the Caster "ADJUSTMENTS" needed with the factory cam or would they have to REPLACE it to get correct the caster?

Also if you re-read this thread I addressed these "Other" adjustment ideas WAY BEFORE you even tried saying the Camber Cams were also used to adjust Caster, however I did say the radius arm correction required SHIMS... Shims that you still have failed to show us.

People like Stoma dont count PowerStroker, he doesnt have the attention span to actually read the entire thread, and guys like Pogo are just too old to strain their eyes reading it all.. I think your fucked PowerStroker.

You Ford techs are just as ignorant as the people whom design them. Let me throw you a life vest because you boys are drowning!



I rest my case... Have a nice day...

P.S. Here is what a TRUE "Adjustable" caster setup would look like. Mind you this is on a MERCEDES.


-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 25th of February 2010 08:49:45 PM

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PowerStroker wrote:

They still use this system on 3/4 ton and bigger trucks.  How the hell does this cause excessive ball joint wear exactly????  If you tell people that you work on Ford trucks, shouldn't you do it the way Ford specifies?
Even the older GM and Dodge trucks that had a solid front axles used this type of system.


Here is where your limited Skill comes into play... Most Ford, GM and Dodge vehicles need the ball joints replaced WAY before 100,000 miles...

I didnt need to replace my Mercedes ball joints unit they got 180,000 miles on them. You know why? Because of the Design! Because of the Adjustments that were built into the vehicle.

The design DOES MATTER! But you wouldnt know because you CANT work on anything other than a Ford. You just work on cars PowerStroker, if you dont have a manual or web page to quote your just naked! You lack the ability understand.

For your information newer GMC, Chevy and Dodge trucks DO NOT still use outdated suspension systems from the early 80's. Perhaps you should take a look under a newer 1500/2500 GM truck sometime.


 



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Now that we have all of that out of the way... Lets get into what the AFTERMARKET made to help the folks whom were lowering or lifting thier trucks



See this bushing above? Well thats not made by Ford. Its a custom set up made for guys whom lifted or lowered their vehicles. Pay special attention to the DUAL CAM design. This is NOT what you will find on a factory Ford Truck. The factory Ford Cam busgings are one peice, not two.

The reason they charge $50 each for these is because they actually allow "Adjustment". Ford trucks DID NOT come with this design, and thus its PROOF that the factory setup is by definition NOT ADJUSTABLE for Caster without having to REPLACE the cam bushings with these aftermarket units.

In case anyone is interested in this kit to make your Ford trucks suspension adjustable without having to collect old busgings, here is the link.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1980-1996-FORD-BRONCO-2WD-CAMBER-CASTER-ALIGNMENT-KIT_W0QQitemZ110497319478QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20100222?IMSfp=TL100222121003r37271

The ones that PowerStroker mentions for $15.00 are just the solid single cam units that come from the factory with a diffrent angle drilled for the center hole, where as these more expensive ones have a cam inside a cam.

You see PowerStroker and the Dealership would charge you $50 for some old cam busgings they been sitting on for years rather than come off the $50 for the PROPER parts... Another reason to avoid the dealer. 

As usual I gave PowerStroker some rope and he hung himself...

-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 25th of February 2010 09:39:17 PM

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SELLC wrote:

PowerStroker I never said there is no way to "CHANGE" Caster on these trucks/vans. What I said is Caster is not ADJUSTABLE.

Sounds like another case of "It depends on what your definition of IS is"
Aren't you splitting hairs here???

See nothing is impossible.... On vehicle without replaceable cam bushings to make Caster "Corrections" you could go as far as cutting the frame, radius arm or in a front wheel drive vehicle you could hog out the strut tower holes. Usually what it means when you have to do this sort of thing is that the vehicle's frame/unibody has been compramised, or serious modifications to the suspension such as a suspension lift has been done.

You are still a rookie PowerStroker....

If I'm a rookie, then what the fuck are you?

I have a question for you PowerStroker... Does Caster increase or decrease on a Ford truck when you lift it say 2 inches over factory specs? Would one be able to get the Caster "ADJUSTMENTS" needed with the factory cam or would they have to REPLACE it to get correct the caster?

I don't do things outside of factory specs.  You would probably have to replace the cam bushings depending on how the lift was done, unless you only need a little change which can often be done by just repositioning the factory bushings.  Most people probably wouldn't worry about caster change due a lift because it would probably affect caster equally on both sides.  I suppose they may complain about a different steering return "feel" but I don't work on many custom vehicles so I don't really care.  It's one of those things that I'll worry about if and when I have to actually deal with it.

Also if you re-read this thread I addressed these "Other" adjustment ideas WAY BEFORE you even tried saying the Camber Cams were also used to adjust Caster, however I did say the radius arm correction required SHIMS... Shims that you still have failed to show us.

Why don't you show me since you're the one who brought them up?

People like Stoma dont count PowerStroker, he doesnt have the attention span to actually read the entire thread, and guys like Pogo are just too old to strain their eyes reading it all.. I think your fucked PowerStroker.

My customers always seem very satisfied with my alignments.  I take great pride in them and they usually drive like a dream once I'm done.

You Ford techs are just as ignorant as the people whom design them. Let me throw you a life vest because you boys are drowning!

Ok



I rest my case... Have a nice day...

P.S. Here is what a TRUE "Adjustable" caster setup would look like. Mind you this is on a MERCEDES.

Just because something requires more work to adjust than turning a turnbuckle or shifting something to a new position in a slotted hole doesn't mean it's not adjustable, it just means you have to work a little harder and stock a basic set of adjustment bushings like a professional shop.

-- Edited by SELLC on Thursday 25th of February 2010 08:49:45 PM




 



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PowerStroker wrote:

 

SELLC wrote:


Sounds like another case of "It depends on what your definition of IS is"
Aren't you splitting hairs here???

Splitting hairs was back in the 80's with Bugs Bunny on Saturday morning Cartoons... Now days we split atoms. So yeah, in this industry of every manufacture having a diffrent name for the part its VERY important we understand the basic theory, as everything else will just fall into place.


If I'm a rookie, then what the fuck are you?

PowerStroker I often tell people that I was born into this business, while others were sworn into it. At the age of 7 I was sorting old nuts and bolts for .50 cents an hour, by a schrewed business man. Mistakes were often encouraged as it just meant having to pay me less at the end of the week. The word deduction still gives me the shivers to this day. I call you a rookie because you work at a dealer. Unlike you I didnt have a whole building of people to fall back on. I have LIVED in shops for several years maybe even a combined total of a decade. Unlike dealership techs whom can walk out them doors at closing time, I have the monkey on my back 24/7. A wise person once told me that you can never put blinders on no matter how much you THINK you know, otherwise the oppertunity to learn has come to an end. Thats one of the reasons I like to argue with you, Pogo and Hillbilly. Some Rookies turn out to be all-stars, so it should be in no way and insult to you. 

I don't do things outside of factory specs.  You would probably have to replace the cam bushings depending on how the lift was done, unless you only need a little change which can often be done by just repositioning the factory bushings.  Most people probably wouldn't worry about caster change due a lift because it would probably affect caster equally on both sides.  I suppose they may complain about a different steering return "feel" but I don't work on many custom vehicles so I don't really care.  It's one of those things that I'll worry about if and when I have to actually deal with it.

PowerStroker, if you didnt do things outside of factory spec's then what the hell are you doing posting up photos of aftermarket eccentric cam bushings? Thats what bothers me most about you, the fact that you sell yourself short to the manufature. The people that made these and all other vehicles were just as human as us mechanics whom repair them. If anything we get a better perspective of where they fail because we fix the things they did not design properly. Most of my anger and hostility with Fords is the fact they are VERY SMART and have come so far that they have actually designed things to fail and require replacement after the car is paid off. They do this to ensure robust sales in parts/service for people not willing to get into another car payment. As a mechanic I welcome the work, I just hate the fact that Fords has turned "Service" into "Replacement". All of the other manufatures are follwing suit, including the newer Mercedes! While the great Henry Ford not only is famous for inventing the assembily line, his kids have one upped him by figuring out a way to engineere obsoletion. The days of building a car to last a life-time are gone. 

Why don't you show me since you're the one who brought them up?

Ill dig up some links... If only to enrich this thread.

My customers always seem very satisfied with my alignments.  I take great pride in them and they usually drive like a dream once I'm done.

I am sure they are. You seem like a pretty sharp guy. Especially if you in here going toe to toe with the likes of me.

Just because something requires more work to adjust than turning a turnbuckle or shifting something to a new position in a slotted hole doesn't mean it's not adjustable, it just means you have to work a little harder and stock a basic set of adjustment bushings like a professional shop.

You missed the point. Well really your just trying to ignore it. Shifting something to a new slotted hole is a whole lot diffrent than replacing the slotted hole. Why would anyone ever need to stock a SET of diffrent sized adjustment bushings (well really they are called sleeves from Ford but we both know theres a lot of that name game shit going on) when its quite clear the aftermarket has a universal design that allows a true caster "Adjustment" after replacing the non-adjustable factory sleeve? Did you get that?

 



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