Step 1: Push the obsolete Navistar engines in the corner and don't look back. 6.4 on the left, 6.0 on the right
Below are a few pics of the new Ford engineered and built 6.7 Powerstroke Diesel
This truck is a 2011 F250 Lariat with a 6.7 Diesel. This truck is a pre-production mule used in product development and for testing the assembly line. There are actually quite a few of these pre production vehicles out there being tested around the world by engineering teams and some of Fords large fleet customers . This one is shared by the Des Moines and Omaha Ford training facilities. It is very quiet, and the on board trip computer shows 20 mpg with 180 miles on the odometer. Though 3/4 and larger trucks are not rated for fuel economy, it is believed that unloaded hwy mpg will be around that.
Here is a picture of the fuel and emissions fluid fill caps. The fluid is 35% chemically pure urea derived from ammonia, and the rest of it is de-ionized water. It is injected in to the selective catalyst reduction system (in the exhaust) in order to control NOX emissions by breaking them in to their base elements of Nitrogen and Oxygen. Nox emissions are a main contributor to photogenic smog formation and is the result of Nitrogen and Oxygen molecules fusing together under the extreme combustion temps characteristic of Diesel engines. Due to the more stringent Nox emissions standards this type of system will be found on just about every Newer Diesel vehicle with a few exceptions.
Special 6.7 Tools including rear and front main seal removers and installers. No Rex, you can't do it without the special tools no matter what your daddy tells you :)
They should have named that engine the octopus! Look at the effing tenticles hanging off that effer!
What is that rail that runs horizontly across the valve cover? Is that a external HP oil rail I see? Or did they do away with that with the Pizeo Crystal?
How about them heads? Are they TRUE 4 valve heads? Or are they bridged like the 6.0?
It's hard to tell from the photo but is that block aluminum? Looks like the bell housing adapter is, but after looking closer it does appear the block is cast iron.
Also looks like they have done away with the bedplate deisgn.
What in the hell is that box looking thing mounted at the bottom right hand corner of the engine in photo #2? It has a white and orange sticker attached to it. Is that the flux capasitor?
What about the cowel? Did they make that removable to allow access to the engine without having to pull the cab? Or is this one going to be a cab off situation 5 years down the road? What kind of warranty are they going to be putting on this engine?
With regards to the tools, I am sure in 5 years we will figure out some kind of work around. I mean for gawds sake man, they are still using a Jeepers Creeper! You would think their creepers would be little robots by now from the looks of that motor.
All engines look good brand spanking new, the question is how will it look 5 years from now? Ford's could always loan me one for their severe duty test. I havent met a Ford truck yet that I couldnt fuck up within a year.
How much is that additive going to cost for that other gas tank? LOL?
-- Edited by SELLC on Tuesday 16th of March 2010 11:24:00 PM
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
They should have named that engine the octopus! Look at the effing tenticles hanging off that effer!
The Navistar 6.4 engine had the same amount of tenticles but they were hidden under the valve covers.
What is that rail that runs horizontly across the valve cover? Is that a external HP oil rail I see? Or did they do away with that with the Pizeo Crystal?
It is a HP FUEL Rail. HEUI injection went away with the 6.0. This one uses High Pressure Fuel and piezo stack injectors similar to a 6.4 but this time the Fuel injection components are made by Bosch rather than Siemens for reliability reasons as well as the ability to run B20 Bio Diesel 20%. The Electronic device in the front of the fuel rail is the FRP or Fuel Rail Pressure sensor. The Device on the Rear of the rail is the Pressure control valve which regulates system pressure (up to 30000 psi under full load) by controling an orifice on the dump side - much like an IPR controlled HP oil on a 6.0. There is also a VCV or volume control valve located on the HP fuel pump to control the amount of fuel going into the pump. (The 6.4 had both the PCV and VCV on the HP pump) Bosch design is different. The injectors also have in internal hydraulic coupling which makes them inoperative unless there is sufficient low pressure fuel delivery to the pump. This will alleviate many of the issues we ran into on the 6.4 when fuel geling damaged pumps due to lack of lube. Also the low fuel pressure/fuel delivery system has a pressure sensor that can alert the driver of problems.
How about them heads? Are they TRUE 4 valve heads? Or are they bridged like the 6.0?
They are true 4 valve heads. There are 4 rockers per cylinder - 1 for each valve, but the cam followers each push 2. Tomorrow I'm going to take a valve cover off for one of the work stations we have to do so I'll snap a picture.
It's hard to tell from the photo but is that block aluminum? Looks like the bell housing adapter is, but after looking closer it does appear the block is cast iron.
The cylinder heads, Bellhousing adapter and front cover are aluminum. The block itself is a special compressed graphite iron which is significantly stronger and lighter than regular cast - This is a first for a truck in this class, though some exotic engines have used this type of iron for a while.
Also looks like they have done away with the bedplate deisgn.
Yes, thankfully. It is much like the old FE Ford engines with a really deep block skirt. It has 6 bolt mains of which 2 are cross bolted. Also the Head gaskets shouldn't be an issue anymore because there are now 6 head bolts around each cylinder instead of 4. Also the compression ratio is reduced.
What in the hell is that box looking thing mounted at the bottom right hand corner of the engine in photo #2? It has a white and orange sticker attached to it. Is that the flux capasitor?
It is the oil cooler, and it's MUCH more easily serviced than the Navistar engines.
What about the cowel? Did they make that removable to allow access to the engine without having to pull the cab? Or is this one going to be a cab off situation 5 years down the road? What kind of warranty are they going to be putting on this engine?
The information I'm getting states most - if not all repairs will have a cab on procedure. I'm a little doubtful when it comes to head gaskets, the intake comes off pretty easily and allows access to just about anything else you would need to do, though the cowl still overhangs quite a bit.
With regards to the tools, I am sure in 5 years we will figure out some kind of work around. I mean for gawds sake man, they are still using a Jeepers Creeper! You would think their creepers would be little robots by now from the looks of that motor.
Ford doesn't send their training centers new creepers very often.
All engines look good brand spanking new, the question is how will it look 5 years from now? Well, that one will still look new 5 years from now, but the one in the truck wont.
Ford's could always loan me one for their severe duty test. I havent met a Ford truck yet that I couldnt fuck up within a year.
We know
-- Edited by PowerStroker on Tuesday 16th of March 2010 11:24:11 PM
You answered before I realized it, however what I forgot to ask was how much this emissions fluid cost? How often do you have to fill it?
So are you telling me that they are producing 30,000 lbs with an electronic fuel pump alone?
I dont understand why they went thru the trouble of adding extra rockers arms to the valves if they are still driven by the same cam lobe, but perhaps they found it made the engine less noisy. I guess it could stabalize the valve train a little more as well, but I wasnt aware of any problems with the old cross bar. I would imagine it would have been hard for repossesion companies to sneak up on their prey with an older PowerStroke though. LOL
Not to take away from the Ford engine at hand, but the Mercedes V8 engines also have six bolt mains too. I'm not sure what year the old Ford FE engines came about, but I think I recall seeing a few.
You answered before I realized it, however what I forgot to ask was how much this emissions fluid cost? How often do you have to fill it?
Depends on where you buy it. The system has a 5 gallon tank that will cost you anywhere from $20-45 to fill - not including labor. The 5 gallon tank will usually last an oil change interval. I've heard there is lower quality stuff on the market with less than the specified 35% urea which will get used up more quickly. The system doesn't just blindly spray a fixed amount. There is a NOX sensor that detects emissions levels and relays that information to a dosing module which controls the DEF injector accordingly. By monitoring NOS levels the system can determine how effectively the system is operating and the quality of the Reductant fluid. It will also alert the driver if the tank is nearing empty or if the fluid is so bad that it won't convert NOX to it's base elements and has a progressive warning system through the message center to alert the driver how many miles they have to rectify the situation before the vehicle defaults to idle operation only.
Last year I heard a rumor that the source for the Urea was going to be hog piss, but I found out yesterday that is not the case. They are making chemically pure urea by deriving it from ammonia somehow so there is no piss involved. I saw a sample of the fluid today, it's light blue in color and has kind of a harsh acidic/ammonia smell. I didn't touch it but I hear it feels slippery on your fingers like soap or bleach. It is very corrosive and the instructor even showed us a couple wiring connectors he dipped in it prior that turned all fuzzy like corroded battery cables. There are warnings about making sure not to spill it on the vehicles paint during a refill because if it's left there it will eat through it.
So are you telling me that they are producing 30,000 lbs with an electronic fuel pump alone?
Nope, the electric pump is only a fuel delivery (lift) pump. The high pressure pump is driven off the cam gear and boosts the pressure up to 30000 psi similar to the 6.4.
The plastic lines are Delivery pressure (about 70-100 psi) and the steel lines are the dangerous ones with up to 30,000 psi
I dont understand why they went thru the trouble of adding extra rockers arms to the valves if they are still driven by the same cam lobe, but perhaps they found it made the engine less noisy. I guess it could stabalize the valve train a little more as well, but I wasnt aware of any problems with the old cross bar. I would imagine it would have been hard for repossesion companies to sneak up on their prey with an older PowerStroke though. LOL
I dunno either, perhaps that design was patented by Navistar and Ford had to come up with their own idea for that reason alone. Maybe I'll find out for sure tomorrow.
Not to take away from the Ford engine at hand, but the Mercedes V8 engines also have six bolt mains too. I'm not sure what year the old Ford FE engines came about, but I think I recall seeing a few.
You and your precious Mercedes, get a room would ya?
Just out of curiosity, will the truck still opperate without the emissions fluid? I mean I gather that it's only purpose is to reduce emissions however is there a sensor that will prevent opperation of the engine should it's 5 gallon tank be empty? I know you said they didn't but I guess you could extact ammonia from hog's piss. I find it somewhat funny they have come up with an "Emissions fluid" makes me wonder if one day they will really come out with a headlight/blinker fluid. LOL
I figured that the electric pump was only pushing 60 or so pounds. So are you saying the new HP pump does not use engine oil to help boost the fuel pressure? Is the HP pump alot easier to access than the ones on the 6.0 and 6.4?
Dont worry about the Mercedes, they too use Bosch fuel systems, so they are no better than Ford's in that respect.
Have fun, and don't drink the pool water! LOL
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Just out of curiosity, will the truck still operate without the emissions fluid? I mean I gather that it's only purpose is to reduce emissions however is there a sensor that will prevent operation of the engine should it's 5 gallon tank be empty?
Yes, once the computer calculates that you have less than 100 miles before the emissions fluid is empty you will be limited to 55 MPH. The driver will have a message center warning every time they start their truck giving them the distance until idle only operation. The customer will have a limited number of system overrides at that point to get in for service but after that they are done. Once empty the tank must be filled with at least 3.5 gallons to resume full power.
I know you said they didn't but I guess you could extact ammonia from hog's piss. I find it somewhat funny they have come up with an "Emissions fluid" makes me wonder if one day they will really come out with a headlight/blinker fluid. LOL
I figured that the electric pump was only pushing 60 or so pounds. So are you saying the new HP pump does not use engine oil to help boost the fuel pressure? Is the HP pump alot easier to access than the ones on the 6.0 and 6.4?
No longer is high pressure engine oil used like a hydraulic fluid to boost pressure inside the injectors by acting on the surface area of the intensifier pistons. As of the 6.4 and newer, these common rail systems boost the fuel pressure with the high pressure pump which is cam driven.
Dont worry about the Mercedes, they too use Bosch fuel systems, so they are no better than Ford's in that respect.
Have fun, and don't drink the pool water! LOL
-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 17th of March 2010 08:34:31 PM
With the turbo removed you can see the back of the HP pump
Emissions fluid injector:
A view of the Exhaust after treatment system. It contains a Diesel oxidation catalyst, a Selective catalyst reduction chamber, a particulate filter, a mixing chamber, the DEF injector, a DPF pressure sensor, 4 temperature sensors, and a NOx sensor.
Egr cooler assembly with EGR valve and Cooler bypass valve
Injectors
A better view of the right valve cover with the EGR cooler removed. Notice the intake passages cast in to the valve cover to accommodate the reverse flow engine.
I liked how they have the heat shielding there in the engine valley to prevent turbo heat from effecting the heads. I was wondering how they would address that issue awhile back.
Them rocker arms look a lot like the ones used in the 6.0 liter engines as well as the push tubes. The camshaft for the 6.7 liter must have some monster wide lobes! I would think this newer 6.7 design would be far superior to that of the 6.0 as it has done away with the bridge. That with the lower compression should make for a much more quiet opperation!
Them injectors look pretty trick as well. Looks like there is a whole lot less to go wrong with them babies!
Is that an electric water pump I see stuffed in there or just a block off plate? I thought maybe the water pump was down on the lower right side of photo #1 however I cant see them doing away with the power steering pump. But maybe they did, Pogo was saying something about a new way on the Escapes, so I guess its possible. If not perhaps the water pump is the one on the upper left hand side?
That IP cluster still gives me a boner to this day. And look at that exhaust system! They did a fine job of thermal protecting that sucker!
What about that dual purpose intake manifold/valve cover!? Is that what it is? Looks like it has runners built into the damn valve cover!? That's pretty trick if you ask me.
That EGR system/cooler looks like a much better design than I have seen in the past. Also looks pretty easy to service!
And my favorite is that FoMoCo turbo! What a monster that thing looks like! Looks like FoMoCo is going to give Garrett a run for their money! About time!
That engine is just a technical marvel! Ford really pulled a rabbit out of their hat this time! Have you had the chance to hear one under load? Do they still have a good whistle to them? Is the engine noticably quiter than ever before?
-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 17th of March 2010 05:24:12 PM
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Them rocker arms look a lot like the ones used in the 6.0 liter engines as well as the push tubes. The camshaft for the 6.7 liter must have some monster wide lobes! I would think this newer 6.7 design would be far superior to that of the 6.0 as it has done away with the bridge. That with the lower compression should make for a much more quiet opperation!
Well, as I understand the main reasons for the reduced sound are due to firing the injectors several times per combustion event - this replaces the 1 quick expansion of burning gasses with a much more controlled flame front. (6.4's do the same) Though this engine is even quieter than a 6.4. Also this engine is flowing a ton of egr - even at idle which quiets it up quite a bit too.
Them injectors look pretty trick as well. Looks like there is a whole lot less to go wrong with them babies!
Is that an electric water pump I see stuffed in there or just a block off plate? I thought maybe the water pump was down on the lower right side of photo #1 however I cant see them doing away with the power steering pump. But maybe they did, Pogo was saying something about a new way on the Escapes, so I guess its possible. If not perhaps the water pump is the one on the upper left hand side?
The block off plate of which you speak is actually a vacuum pump which is driven off the HP pump gear. This engine requires vacuum to run some things like the egr cooler bypass valve. Also the F250's will have a vacuum brake booster, but the F350 and larger will still use hydroboost. These trucks still use hydraulic power steering. The electric power steering is making it's way in to more smaller cars though. There are actually 2 belt driven water pumps for 2 completely separate cooling systems.
That IP cluster still gives me a boner to this day. And look at that exhaust system! They did a fine job of thermal protecting that sucker!
What about that dual purpose intake manifold/valve cover!? Is that what it is? Looks like it has runners built into the damn valve cover!? That's pretty trick if you ask me.
That EGR system/cooler looks like a much better design than I have seen in the past. Also looks pretty easy to service!
And my favorite is that FoMoCo turbo! What a monster that thing looks like! Looks like FoMoCo is going to give Garrett a run for their money! About time!
Garrett actually builds this turbo too, but they do it to Fords spec and thus the FoMoCo cast into the compressor housing.
That engine is just a technical marvel! Ford really pulled a rabbit out of their hat this time! Have you had the chance to hear one under load? Do they still have a good whistle to them? Is the engine noticably quiter than ever before?
We aren't allowed to drive this one, but we have run it in the shop and commanded it to do things with the IDS. It's about as loud as a gas engine with a more dieselish sound.
-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 17th of March 2010 05:24:12 PM
How about them intake runners built into the valve cover!? You didnt mention anything about that, I was really curious if I was just seeing things or if that was infact the purpose. Maybe they did the same thing in the 6.4's, but I have never had a 6.4 apart so i couldnt say.
With regards to Garrett building the turbo's, Ill now remove my foot from my mouth.
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Reverse flow eh? Sounds like your holding back on little info to me...
What of this reverse flow action? Or is that top secret? LOL
Never seen anything like that before.
When you reffer to reverse flow are you speaking of the cooling system? Or does it have something to do with the turbo/EGR? Now my curiosity has peeked!
Are you holding out on me PowerStroker!? LOL
-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 17th of March 2010 07:32:02 PM
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Reverse flow in terms of where air enters the heads and exhaust exits. Notice there are no exhaust manifolds on the outside of the heads, it's because exhaust exits from the center valley area of the engine, and air enters where the exhaust manifolds would be on a normal engine. It is backward for packaging reasons as well as reducing turbo lag significantly by shortening the distance between the exhaust manifolds and the turbine housing. This also helps to contain heat in the exhaust system which improves turbo efficiency since turbochargers are powered by the heat of expanding exhaust gasses. This configuration really cleans things up and makes a lot more sense for turbocharged "V" engines... They should have thought of this YEARS ago!
Oh.... Okay! Now I see what you're talking about. I guess that explains them heat shields! You cant even see the exhaust manifolds with the heat shields on there!
That is pretty slick! I just figured that since the engine was on an engine stand they didnt have the manifolds installed. That does seem to be a pretty good idea, even if it is from a packaging standpoint. I wonder if they did anything to prevent heat soak on the runners that are built into the valve covers?
I sure hope Ford's got it right with this engine. Seems they really put a lot of thought and innovation into this design. It also seems like they spent a fair amount of time testing it prior to the release. You would be amazed at how many people I have met that have no idea there is a 6.7 liter coming out in 2011. A lot of people with 2010 6.4 liters swear they have the new Scorpion engine, and it almost breaks my heart to inform them that 2011 is the first year.
I think we all owe PowerStroker a big thanks for spending his time away from home couped up in a hotel room to bring us this information. As much as we fight and carry on this thread is top shelf! Some of his best work if you ask me!
I am considering making this thread a "Sticky" so it stays at the top of the Ford Truck Forum, if thats okay with PowerStroker.
And by the way, Thanks for sharing this information with us PowerStroker!
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
Let me guess.... You didnt take the time to read all of my threads carefully? I sure hope you dont skim thru your coffee table books like that Pogo!
I am sure you were going to say the design of the head made such bridges impossible to use due to the addition of a head bolt, however we all know if Ford wanted to use the bridge, they could have designed the head diffrently, just like they designed everything else on that engine. However I am more than positive you never even took the time to read carefully my responces above.
Also keep in mind that I am just looking at PHOTOS! I think I did quite a good job of pointing out things on that engine from just photos. Had I been up close and personal with the engine for two days, with someone spoon feeding me details all day long I may have been as informed as PowerStroker. Then again we can always count on you Pogo to take a $hit right in the middle of the parade.
So PowerStroker spoon fed me a few times.
I didnt mind, heck a few times I even asked for more and liked it!
__________________
What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
I like how it dumps a couple quarts of anti-freeze down into the oil pan when you pull the turbocharger off. First shop that does a turbo R&R without reading the WSM is gonna be buying an engine.
I also like how the aftertreatment system starts at the downpipe, and goes to almost the rear axle.
And if the low fuel pressure switch goes open circuit, the truck assumes that it has fuel pressure...
With the sensor un-plugged, the PID reads "NOT LOW" for fuel pressure.
Fuck.
But from what they are saying, it won't run with NO fuel pressure, but since it uses the time it takes for the PID to switch between LOW/NOT LOW to determine fuel filter life, there's gonna be people running around with shit filters, or un plugging the sensor to avoid the "SERVICE FUEL FILTERS" messages, because they're too fucking cheap to put filters in it.
I like how it dumps a couple quarts of anti-freeze down into the oil pan when you pull the turbocharger off. First shop that does a turbo R&R without reading the WSM is gonna be buying an engine.
Hey PowerStroker, nice to have you back.
You would think pulling the turbo would net a big enough anti-freeze mess to make most people say "Shit! I am going to have to change the oil now". Then again we do have rookies like Stoma in here. Guys like Stoma spend more time looking at their hands than paying attention.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
I'm not Hillbilly, though he is one of my Yahoo messenger buddies.
If you're smart enough to figure out where Stoma is from based on his IP address, then you're smart enough to figure out Hillbilly is Canadian and I'm Minnesotan.
I finally drove my first 6.7 today as the first 3 showed up at the dealership. After the PDI was performed, 3 other techs and I who had been drooling over it all day - hopped in and took it out for it's inaugural beating. I must say I'm impressed by how smooth and quiet it is. It also has noticeably more torque than the prior engines. It also doesn't seem to have really any turbo lag like the 6.0 and 6.4's had, I can easily burn the tires off the line if traction control is turned off. I have no idea at this point what kind of pattern failures, if any, we will see on these. It's almost like I'm a virgin again.
But more importantly.... Did you and your three other buddies get to see some boobies while out on this test drive?
Sounds like a real nice truck PowerStroker... I myself rented a 2010 F150 for a day and while not a Diesel, there is something about a brand new vehicle. The one I had was under 2000 miles. See there is just something about a vehicle when everything is brand new.
Strange enough that after my 500 mile journey I had developed a headache from that "New Car Smell". See the new car smell is nice for small trips to remind you the vehicle is still new, however when having to smell that crap for hours on end.... Thats another story.
Another thing was how even after but a small time I could not help but feel like the vehicle was getting old... Streaks on the windshield, dust collecting on the vents, a little spilled fluid on the bedliner. All these things reminding me that a new car is only new while sitting on the dealer lot. It's all downhill once it see's daily road conditions.
I seemed to average 18.8 MPG and the 30 gallon tank had a range of just under 700 miles! I never had to stop for gas once on a 7 hour trip! And I even had 1/4 tank left when I returned home... I am so glad I am making the switch back to gas, I just dont do enough heavy pulling to justify one of these massive and powerful deisel engines.
I should also point out how happy I was to lean that even a new vehicle will handle like shit on shitty roads. Of course being used to 45 series tires and then hoping in a truck with 75 series tires did make the newer truck feel like a wet sponge from the onset.
Glad to hear you guys got to play with the new toys at the dealer. If Ford lives up to its reputation you guys will stay busy. The only comfort us independents can take is knowing Ford's will ensure parts dont last too far past the warranty period.
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What is to give light must endure burning -- Viktor Frankl
