Question for PowerStroker - Auto-Trend Repairs and Service Information Forums

gerryvz · Member

Question for PowerStroker

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

F350 with the V10 For the win

Reason: Though the V10 doesn't get the fuel economy that the 6.0 does, it won't make you take out a second mortgage to get it fixed when it breaks - and ALL 6.0's break.

The F350's have higher gear ratio axles for better highway fuel economy... Unless you're hauling huge loads all the time, you probably don't need the extreme duty springs, brakes, and axles in the F450. Also, if you got a 6.0 in a F450 it would be de-tuned and have less power than a F350. I'm not sure whether they de-tune the V10 in the F450's though.

F250's aren't really any different than a F350 except you can't get a F250 with dual rear wheels, and they have some softer spring options for a better ride. Also, depending on which state you live in, it may be cheaper to register a F250.

I've personally had hundreds of 6.0 Diesels apart, and maybe seen 1 V10 have a serious problem. The older V10's are preferable (the 2 valve engines) because when the went to the 3 valve engine with variable valve timing they became a little more troublesome.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Friday 28th of October 2011 05:02:57 PM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

I see V10's crack the exhaust manifolds all the time, and you get to bend over for one of them.

If you own a 6.0 Diesel it means you a) Have a lot of money or b) are a mechanic

But they really are a lot of fun. I can't say I would want to depend on one for commercial purposes but there is a VERY BIG difference if you are pulling weight between a diesel (6.0 or 7.3) and a Gas (V8 or V10).

Also your gas mileage on a V10 is less than HALF of what you will see with a diesel.

Of course... I wouldn't mind one of them new Scorpion 6.7's... I have yet to even drive one yet. PowerStoker on the other hand has been all around looking at boobies in customers new F250's and F350's. Hell, I hear he picked up his girlfriend before Putz in a customers dump truck.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

A cracked exhaust manifold on a V10 doesn't leave you walking or cost 5 grand to fix. Yeah, the gas mileage sucks, but it's predictable. 6.0 breakdowns can be sudden and cost several thousand dollars - which would buy a lot of gasoline.

Gerry drives a Mercedes after all, I'm sure he can afford the nickle and dime problems that the V10 will throw at him.

If he drove Bugatti, then I might feel comfortable with him getting a 6.0, but if he did own a Bugatti, he could afford to skip the 6.0 / 6.4 and get a new 6.7.

gerryvz · Member

Yes, I think I'm going to avoid the 6.0 liter. I'm told by other knowledgeable sources that it's a "Bad engine."

My friend goes on to say that "the 6.7 might be OK, but it is made in Mexico and unproven. The v10 Ford is a great motor, I know of two V10 vans with over 400k on them@10mpg. If you are getting a gas powered truck, why not get a Texas built Tundra Crew Max? 2006 was the last year the big diesels were not EPA mangled."

Fuck that, I'm getting a Ford so that I can be a major Texas hick.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Oh no... If he ever has any problems with a 6.0 all he has to do is replace the ICP Sensor and that will fix it! At least thats what my good buddy told me and he is supposed to be a top notch Ford Certified Diesel tech! wink

So... Whats a full boat 2012 F250 Diesel 4X4 Crew fetch now days, with all the bells and whistles?

Got to be cresting the 60K mark.

gerryvz · Member

PowerStroker wrote:
Gerry drives a Mercedes after all, I'm sure he can afford the nickle and dime problems that the V10 will throw at him.

I actually drive 5 Mercedes, and four of them are V-8s with displacement of 5.0 liters or greater !!

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

gerryvz wrote:
If you are getting a gas powered truck, why not get a Texas built Tundra Crew Max?

Heathen! Repent! Repent!

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

gerryvz wrote:
I actually drive 5 Mercedes, and four of them are V-8s with displacement of 5.0 liters or greater !!

I got 5 also, but only one runs at a time. Every time I have two running at once one gets sold.

Technically I only have 4 now, since I gave one to the kid.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

The 6.7 has been fantastic so far. The only thing I've had to do is replace a torn oil filler o-ring (5 minute job) and a few early build exhaust Nox sensors before they improved the part. But they cost about $55,000 at least for a 4x4 extended cab. Think of how many Mercedes you could buy with that kind of ching.

gerryvz · Member

Not that many, because your boy Obama wants all old Benzes to go to the crusher. I didn't actually mind C4C program that much, it took out enough old Benzes that it made those still around (in decent condition) all the more valuable.

I am just not sure why you are hung up on the money side of things though. That is meaningless. I mean, when I decide it's the day I want to buy the truck, I'll reach for my checkbook and write out a check.

I have a simple methodology for buying new vehicles, always have. And I am deadly serious about this, and it works 100% of the time. First of all, I do my homework. I study the prices -- real" invoice, "fake" dealer invoice, MSRP, option prices, etc. I figure out what I am willing to pay for the vehicle. I'll throw about $200-300 on top of that so that the dealer can pay for the phosphorus lamps to light up his lot at night, for a telephone line, and for the coffee in the coffee machine. And about $100 backed into that amount to pay the guy I'm dealing with for his time and luck in dealing with an efficient guy like myself, who doesn't waste his time.

Next up, I research where all of the local dealers within about a 50 mile radius are. Then I chart out a path to them, and set a day aside (or a few evenings if during the week). Then I start at the farthest away dealership, and drive in there. I talk to a sales guy. Here is what I tell him:

I am only going to be here 5 minutes. This is what I am looking for [model, engine, color, general trim/options of vehicle]
I have a check [show it to him, amount filled in with nothing on the "To the Order Of" line] made out for what I am willing to pay for said vehicle.
I am willing to write the dealership's name into the "To the Order Of" line RIGHT NOW -- i.e. I am here to buy a vehicle
You need to do what you need to do -- WITHIN 5 MINUTES -- and come back to me with a "yes" or a "no" answer as to whether you can do the deal for this amount. No negotiating. I will wait 300 seconds, then walk out the door. If you come back with a Yes answer, then I will sit down with your finance guy and you and we will fill out papers and registration. If you come back with a No answer, then I will say "thank you" and politely walk out the door.

99% of the time they come back with a "Yes ... but" answer and then try to get me to sit down, try to meet their manager or other salesman, etc. I say "uhh uhh ... you didn't do what I asked, so I thank you for your time and will be going now". And tuck the check back into my wallet.

Usually they are following me all the way out to my car. I then drive to the next dealership. I've always found at least ONE dealer who will work with me this way. No bullshit, nobody's time wasted. Yes...or No.

Just think if Obama and Congress worked like that. Congress would only have to work for 1 or 2 months a year at that level of efficiency.

So, when I decide to pull the trigger on a new Ford truck, I'll just roll down to the Ford dealer in my 23 year old Benz, talk to the fleet manager, and follow the above procedure. Mayve even do it over the phone to save time and gasoline.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

gerryvz wrote:
Not that many, because your boy Obama wants all old Benzes to go to the crusher. I didn't actually mind C4C program that much, it took out enough old Benzes that it made those still around (in decent condition) all the more valuable.
+1 Gerry! But.... What is REALLY bothering to me outside of any "government" assistance buying a car on tax payer dime is when we are slapped in the face with pure childish waste and destruction. The salvage lots were just GIVEN these vehicles free with the only condition being that they had to poor liquid sand in the engine and rev it till it locked. The body had to be crushed also, however any parts could be removed and resold @ 100% profit to the salvage yard. To me that's not only ignorant, that's just plain wastefully destructive. Did I mention tax payers paid for this kind of waste? The government could have crushed all them cars and built more roads, bridges and all kinds of things with the steel! That's what I call GOOD business.

I am just not sure why you are hung up on the money side of things though. That is meaningless. I mean, when I decide it's the day I want to buy the truck, I'll reach for my checkbook and write out a check.
That's the way it should always be Gerry! I only financed 3 vehicles in my life... Two Ford Mustangs and One Ford F-250 Super Duty. The last one I owned outright and got fucked by a bank that wrote checks they couldn't cash.

Usually they are following me all the way out to my car. I then drive to the next dealership. I've always found at least ONE dealer who will work with me this way. No bullshit, nobody's time wasted. Yes...or No.
Isn't it funny how money works!? Of course a suitcase full of cash is still one better than a blank check. Anymore it's getting harder and harder to find banks that can come off with large amounts of cash. They dont like to part with it. They would rather it go thru electronically, than come off the cash in the bank vault.
Just think if Obama and Congress worked like that. Congress would only have to work for 1 or 2 months a year at that level of efficiency.
I agree. Government should be running at a surplus. But if you ask PowerStroker he will tell you it's Bushes fault, even though we are currently running at record deficits and in 3 years Obama has pissed thru more than Bush did in 8.
So, when I decide to pull the trigger on a new Ford truck, I'll just roll down to the Ford dealer in my 23 year old Benz, talk to the fleet manager, and follow the above procedure. Mayve even do it over the phone to save time and gasoline.
Careful Gerry! Car thieves got John Travolta's Benz that way! LOL!
If you do happen to have $55,000 laying around the 6.7 liter Scorpion appears to have some state of the art technologies. Plus they just look like a truck should. You can read up more on the 6.7 Scorpion here
http://autotrend.activeboard.com/t34698163/67-diesel-spy-pictures-from-spoon-feeding-school/
If you don't plan on keeping the truck forever, you might consider a lease of the above truck, since it is rather new to the market. Leases are a bad idea unless you are going to make money pulling a payload. There is no doubt you will fit in well with the Texans if your packing a brand new PSD.
Just go test drive a new Ford Super Duty Diesel then go for a ride in a Toyota. You wont be pulling out no blank check, and you will probably go close the deal at the Ford dealer driving the Toyota. Tell the salesman you will kick him $100 cash to return the Toyota to the dealer. Be sure someone drops you off at the Toyota dealership, again, that's what happened to Travolta. LOL
Every Texan has a soft spot for a big Ford Diesel truck. Hell everyone south of the mason Dixon line just cant help but like a good ole' boy driving a Big Diesel pickup truck.
Don't be a pussy! PowerStroker just hates Diesels cuz he has to fix them all day. A real truck is BIG, LOUD, FAST and STINKS, otherwise it's a Toyota.

-- Edited by SELLC on Saturday 29th of October 2011 01:02:35 AM

gerryvz · Member

I wouldn't drive a diesel unless I could have it so that when I accelerated from a stop light, it kicked out a major cloud of black smoke so that others around me had to breathe it in through their cars' fresh air intakes and A/C systems.

Oh yeah, and put a 10 or 12-inch chrome exhaust tip on it too.

That's what they do down here in Texas. I would need to fit in.

But I'm leaning toward the V-10 I think.

I have done the 'Suitcase of cash" thing in the past, but haven't done it for probably 20 years now because it's just not safe these days to carry around large amounts of cash, no matter who you are. Yes I concealed carry but $60K worth of cash isn't exactly COMPACT, either..... I think you're just setting yourself up as a target when you do that. Easier to go with a check.

But I agree that cash talks very loud and I have done that method the first few times I employed that vehicle buying method when I was a young punk.

I doubt if PowerStroker has ever held $60K of cash in his hand before....

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

gerryvz wrote:
But I'm leaning toward the V-10 I think.

Pussy...

Might I suggest at least test driving the PowerStroke diesel before you make up your mind?

gerryvz · Member

I'll test drive all of them, indeed.

Powerstroker has been awfully quiet. I guess he's not used to pounding out cash for his vehicles.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I don't have a car payment, and if I wan't to hold 60 grand in my hand, all I need to do is touch my work toolbox, which is also paid for.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

You may have paid 60K for all your tools PowerStroker, but you will NEVER get 60K for your tools.

Tools just like cars do not really hold value, they depreciate the moment they become 2nd hand. That's why I would never spend 60K on a vehicle.

If I had 60K in my hands I would put it in a burlap bag and use it to beat down the fucks who cheated me out of 10K.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I've got another 10K in my home tool box. I think I'm pretty much done buying tools now though.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:
I've got another 10K in my home tool box. I think I'm pretty much done buying tools now though.

You might be done buying tools for your home tool box, but we both know that when it comes to fixing cars your never done buying tools. You might have all the major stuff, but it never fails that car manufatures come up with some kind of new design that will require you to purchase something new from time to time.

I was going to let you say this, but you didn't, "Tools can make you 100X what you paid for them". So in the right hands tools are a good investment. Same could be said about cars if you buy them right and sell them for a profit.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

You're actually right about me not being done buying tools. The ford VCM scan tool is going to be phased out in the next couple years, and it's replacement (VCM2) becomes available
sometime in the first half of 2012. At $1200 it's actually about half the cost of my original, so I plan to be one of the first to buy the new one and stick the old one on ebay before they become flooded with other techs doing the same thing. If it works out, it might end up being a free upgrade depending on what I get for the old one.

Plus there are a couple more air tools I need at home ie: air drills, air saw, pencil die grinder... Then I'll be close to done... Maybe.

gerryvz · Member

I own all of my Benzes outright as well as my motorcycle.

I'm talking about $60K of cold, hard, cash. I mean, yeah, any asshole can say they have $60K worth of something. My wife has a multiples-of-$60K diamond wedding ring. I live in a house that's worth a lot more than $60K

I'm talking green, bundles of sweet-smelling cash.

You know, that stuff that Obama wants to make everyone in the country dependent on the government (or their union buddies) to give them. Something that nobody seems to want to earn anymore by actually working hard, least of all Democrats (particularly the Democrats who are lazing about downtown areas of cities all around the country at this very moment).

I'm surprised you're not joining all of the protestors, PowerStroker, because of how unfair you and your friends have been treated by the system.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

So Gerry, what exactly do you do for HP that pays in pallets of hundred dollar bills and can't be outsourced... Or did you inherit your money?

gerryvz · Member

I don't talk details about my personal or professional life on this forum. I try to focus on the car/vehicle hobby and an occasional detour into politics. Luckily Rex, like with the Benz hobby and the Benzworld idiots, generally has his head screwed on correctly when it comes to politics too.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Well that's fine, but if you're not going to tell us how you got rich, I'd suggest no longer telling everybody that you're rich. Believe it or not, people will actually like you more if you don't gloat about money.

gerryvz · Member

When and what did I say about being rich? I consider "rich" to be someone worth tens of millions of dollars (cash and investments). Why do you insist on painting me to be something that I'm not. I mean, I own 5 Benzes, all paid for, the newest one being 16 years old. A 10 year old motorcycle. Everybody else I know has a brand new car and wears designer label clothing. Me? I just wear Levis and Vans shoes.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

gerryvz asked:
"When and what did I say about being rich?"
gerryvz wrote:
"I have done the 'Suitcase of cash" thing in the past, but haven't done it for probably 20 years now because it's just not safe these days to carry around large amounts of cash, no matter who you are. Yes I concealed carry but $60K worth of cash isn't exactly COMPACT, either..... I think you're just setting yourself up as a target when you do that. Easier to go with a check."
_______________________________________________

"But I agree that cash talks very loud and I have done that method the first few times I employed that vehicle buying method when I was a young punk.

I doubt if PowerStroker has ever held $60K of cash in his hand before....
I own all of my Benzes outright as well as my motorcycle.

I'm talking about $60K of cold, hard, cash. I mean, yeah, any asshole can say they have $60K worth of something. My wife has a multiples-of-$60K diamond wedding ring. I live in a house that's worth a lot more than $60K

I'm talking green, bundles of sweet-smelling cash.

PowerStroker doesn't gloat about material posessions, or measure a man by his money, but what he accomplishes in his life. Some people accomplish a lot and happen to become rich in the process... Some just accomplish a lot and get the satisfaction that comes with it. Then there are those who marry in to money, inherit money, or just end up in a job that pays a lot more than what their contributions are actually worth.

Which category do you fit in to Gerry?

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Monday 31st of October 2011 08:25:50 PM

gerryvz · Member

If Obama wasn't pushing this "class warfare" thing and encouraging the "Occupy Wall Street" protestors we'd all be a lot better off. There's nothing wrong with having money, no matter how you got it (as long as you got it by legal means, and didn't rip people off to get it). I know people who are multimillionaires who worked very little for it. I also know millionaires who were entrepreneurs who worked very hard for it.

I work for a large corporation. Nobody makes the big money at large corporations unless you are at the very top, which I'm not. To rise to the top, you have to basically sell your soul to the company - be willing to travel all the time, perform and be "on your game" 24x7x365, give up your family life (high probability of divorce, etc.) and be willing to be ruthless and screw other people on your way up. That's not what I'm all about. I get paid a good wage for the type of work I do, and I have a great family life and enough time to indulge and enjoy my hobbies on the side. I've worked for several very large companies (revenues of $40B and higher) and small start-ups of 3-10 people in my career where we couldn't afford checks every payday. My line of work has given me plenty of opportunities and challenges. It's an important type of job that's integral to all companies, and has become more and more in demand over the past 20+ years, so I've been able to make a good living at it.

So about the statement of being in a job "that pays a lot more than what their contributions are actually worth" -- that's a very subjective statement. In a capitalist system the market determines what a job is actually worth. I'm not quoting actual real facts and figures here, but it's not my fault if a company pays an accountant $100,000 a year but only pays a mechanic $60K a year. Why do we pay our teachers crap money for working their butts off doing the very important job of educating our kids, while even the shittiest professional athletes earn multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? The system dictates this - it's the law of supply and demand.

The moment that people say "screw professional sports" and stop going to games and paying outrageous ticket prices and stop buying beer and Nike shoes and such, that whole sports industry will collapse in about 2 seconds. Our professional athletes would be starving on the streets. But the fact is, that people perceive value that they are willing to pay big bucks for to go to games and pay those mad ticket prices for. And buy those $150 sneakers they see on TV that are made in China by 8 year old kids.

But there's another way........Perhaps PowerStroker, there are also a few people out there who actually started with almost nothing, but made smart decisions along the way and actually turned "nothing" into "something". Like playing the capitalist system and the stock market well. Like buying Apple stock back in 1997 when it was $13 a share and selling it when it hit $300 a share 15 years later. Like working for the right companies in the right industry and getting stock options and being able to exercise them. Like moving to a low-cost, high quality of life area of the country to maximize the educational opportunitues for their kids, where they could get the most housing bang for their buck, where there was an ample supply of well-paying jobs. A few people who went to night school to struggle through the process of continuing education, to pursue that Master's degree to help them get ahead, who made the conscious decision not to live a lifestyle where they had to have a new car every two or three years. Where they diligently put more money than they should aside for a comfortable retirement. I even know a guy who just retired a few months ago from IBM in his low-50s age, and he was only ever a middle-rank employee. Never even made director level.

You see PowerStroker, life is all about choices and how you play the deck of cars that is dealt to you. Some people (and I'm not saying you're one of them) choose to get angry and pissed at others for playing the system right. Other people decide to quietly go about building and investing and making good decisions, and then reaping the rewards of those decisions. And yet others choose to blow their money constantly on new bling to impress everyone else.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

gerryvz wrote:
Why do we pay our teachers crap money for working their butts off doing the very important job of educating our kids, while even the shittiest professional athletes earn multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? The system dictates this - it's the law of supply and demand.

Well, you didn't answer my question about which category you fit into, just a general statement that it doesn't matter as long as it was legal. Kinda makes me wonder if you're truly proud of the category you're in.

Anyway I think there's more to it than just supply and demand. The average CEO pay has increased by over 200 percent in the last 30 years, yet there's no shortage of people qualified to be CEO's.

gerryvz · Member

There you go again with that class warfare thing. If you protesters don't like the CEO pay, then don't patronize their companies !! Don't repair Fords for a living so you don't have to support their CEO's huge pay. Don't go to sporting events (I don't -- I hate professional sports and don't want anything to do with professional sports).

It doesn't matter what category I am in. I work hard for what I make, and I deserve every penny that I earn. The day my employer decides otherwise, they'll kick me out on my ass, and I'll get another job doing what I do best. If I wanted more money, if that truly motivated me, there is no shortage of companies that would pay me 30% more than I make now. I can say this because several of my colleagues have left over the past couple of years and done exactly that - gone to competitors for a 30% pay hike.

You're a socialist/communist so of course you don't believe in capitalism and the law of supply and demand. But the fact is, that these CEOs wouldn't be making so much money if the shareholders of the companies didn't elect the boards that allowed them to do it. And when the shareholders get sick of it, they have the power to change it. It doesn't sound like you're too familiar with corporate governance or the stock market, which is too bad. But I understand. You feel that the government should be coddling everyone cradle to grave.

I'm sorry, but another tenet of capitalism is that there are no free lunches. And America IS NOT a socialist or communist country. The 2010 elections bore that out and the 2012 elections are REALLY going to bear that out. I hope you're ready for the shellacking that your boy Obama is going to take a year from now. Romney (who is not my favorite candidate, but will be the GOP contender) is going to clean Obama's clock.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

gerryvz wrote:
It doesn't matter what category I am in. I work hard for what I make, and I deserve every penny that I earn.

I'm sure you do work hard for everything you earn Gerry, I'm just wondering if you've had to work for everything you have. You didn't inherit a bunch of money, or marry in to money did you??? Did you work full time to put yourself through school??? I did.

As far as me being a Socialist and not believing in Capitalism... You're half right. I believe in a mix of both actually, which is exactly what America is. I don't want HP running the Center for Disease Control any more than I want the government building my computer. And if you think you're not a Socialist, just think of that every time you drive your Mercedes on a public road and over public bridges to get to work. I think you appreciate having the freedom to drive anywhere without paying tolls to the corporations that own the various streets you drive on. I think deep down you look forward to the day you will get your Social Security check in the mail and get Medicare. I think you feel comforted knowing that you are protected by the largest and most deadly socialized military the world has ever known. I also think you feel comforted knowing that socialized police and fire protection is but a phone call away. Though a bit mis-guided, you seem intelligent enough to have picked up a book at some point in your life... I'd bet you've been in a public library or school before. I even bet you've utilized the socialized postal service a time or two in your life. I'll bet you find comfort in the fact that there is a socialized judicial system to enforce any contract you enter in to with someone, and a criminal justice system to keep the murderers and pot smokers locked up. I would even venture to bet you feel somewhat more comfortable in the grocery store knowing that the USDA regulates standards for food safety. And I'd venture to bet you've taken prescription drugs at some point in your life and didn't even think about how safe they were, because you knew the socialized FDA had already studied and approved your medicine.

There's some additional medicine you should seriously take, which isn't regulated by the FDA... It's called Keynesian economics, and in your case, I think a spoon full of sugar will help it go down. Perhaps you're not entirely the self-made man you think you are. It's ok Gerry, none of us are. The Chamber of Commerce didn't win World War Two for us. A Socialized military made of blue collar patriots like my grandfather did. And you can thank them for your freedom to preach the merits of trickle-down economics and bloveate about lowering corporate taxes and protecting the inherited fortunes of the Koch Brothers in English, instead of German or Japanese.

If you think about it, in that war, we gladly allied ourselves with true left wing Communists in order to defeat the evil resulting from the other end of the political spectrum - Fascism, which is the exact opposite of Liberalism. I feel very comfortable with the team I have chosen, how about you? Did you ever stop to wonder why neo-nazis vote Republican, or why Fox "News" fans the flames of anti-Islamic sentiment? Now you do.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 09:45:02 PM

gerryvz · Member

If it's in the Constitution, I have no problem with it. But starting with the New Deal, continuing with the Great Society, and now Obama has continued the Constitution-tramping legacy of Democrats to unlawfully move America into a socialist society. Roads, post offices, military defense, etc. Those things are in the Constitution. You and I both know I'm not talking about that stuff.

There is a big difference between the shared basic services (defense, education, postal service, infrastructure, libraries, fire/police protection, etc.) you are quoting and services like Obamacare or social security that put mandates on the US population to partake of them. That's where it gets REALLY illegal.

I'll never have social security so your little rant doesn't apply to me. The program won't be solvent in 25 or 30 years when I retire. I've never made any sort of assumption my entire career that I'd have it; I have planned and made other arrangements. Nor do I really want it, but unfortunately it will be forced down my throat, just like it is being forced down my parents' throats. My mom, who never worked a day in her life, and thus never paid into the system, is forced to take benefits AGAINST HER WILL. She and my dad both would be HAPPY to not take social security so as to give their payments to others, because they don't need the money. But it is unlawful not to take it once you retire. The only control you have is WHEN you start taking it, and that gauges HOW MUCH you get. Of course my parents took it at the earliest possible moment they could so as to minimize the amount they were given. I don't know what I will do, if the system is by some miracle still paying out when I retire (not likely) -- perhaps donate it to my church or to charity or something.

Now I'm happy for your blue collar citizen soldier grandfather. He was only one of many millions of citizens who did their part in the war effort, large or small. My maternal grandfather was a graduate of the US Naval Academy at Annapolis, and went on to serve during the war in the US Navy. He was responsible for lubrication (motor oil) R&D on diesel submarine engines. After the war he went on to a long career at Standard Oil of California (aka Chevron) where he co-invented and holds the patents with a colleague on the Chevron oil known as DELO.He retired in 1967 and was a full Captain in the US Naval Reserve (which would be equivalent to a full-bird colonel rank in the US Army).

Have you ever heard of Chevron DELO oil? It's intended for diesel engines. I'll bet you didn't know what it stands for. Well, the acronym stands for "Diesel Engine Lubricating Oil" surprise surprise. Today I use it in several of my Benzes because it's one of the only readily available dino oils that still has enough ZDDP in it for my older Benz gas motors (along with Shell Rotella T). So, you see, my citizen soldier grandfather also did his part in helping win the war, to keep those submarines going that sank millions of tons of Japanese shipping.

All of this sounds to me like you're just jealous of someone who made different choices than you did. And your boy Obama just loves stoking those feelings of inequity. He wants you to be angry and upset that you didn't get the same opportunities as everyone else. Well, everyone's circumstances are different. One size does not apply to all, even in America. Maybe in Cuba or Communist Russia, but not in America. That doesn't mean we don't have upward mobility and the ability to make something of ourselves -- IF WE WANT TO. It doesn't matter how it gets paid. I work with folks who attended university 100% on scholarship because they worked harder than I did in high school. They made that choice to do so; I didn't. Is that wrong? Should I also have had that opportunity to attend university on 100% scholarship?

Ahh... but I did !! But I made CHOICES that precluded me from that. But I also had something called a SAVINGS ACCOUNT. A pair of parents who made me from the time I was born save 50% of every penny I ever made, birthday and Christmas money, paper route money for 8 years, summer job money, you name it. And my parents taught me how to INVEST the money to make a GOOD RETURN, not to stick it in my mattress or on a 1% bank savings account. You see PowerStroker, that is the difference. I was born to parents who cared about me and who took the time to instill certain knowledge and values from a very early age in me. While all my neighborhood kids were out smoking pot in junior high and getting busted for shoplifting, I was working, learning, developing my skills. Unfair advantage? I guess so. You decide.

gerryvz · Member

I really think we ought to get PowerStroker together with cascade and McLiar.

What do you think, SELLC? Should I formally introduce them?

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Ah Haaa, so you do come from a rich family, I knew it!!! Congratulations on that by the way! The lucky sperm club is hard to get in to.

Oh yeah, I view the Constitution as a living document. It says Congress can provide for the common welfare of the citizens, so if that means things like the New Deal to help people who weren't members of the lucky sperm club have some upward mobility, so be it.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 10:08:47 PM

gerryvz · Member

PowerStroker wrote:
Oh yeah, I view the Constitution as a living document.

And that's your folly. The Constitution in its fundamental precepts is NOT a living document. I know I can't change your mind, but this is definitely solidified in the Federalist Papers, which were authored by the framers of the Constitution and clarify their intent. But liberals never let the facts hold them back.

I suppose you think the Bible is a living document, too.

With regard to your statement about the "General Welfare of the People":

General Welfare

The general welfare clause is mentioned twice in the U.S. Constitution: first, in the preamble and second, it is found in Article 1, Section 8.

The preamble reads: WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution refers to the general welfare thus: The Congress shall have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . .

The preamble clearly defines the two major functions of government: (1) ensuring justice, personal freedom, and a free society where individuals are protected from domestic lawbreakers and criminals, and; (2) protecting the people of the United States from foreign aggressors.

When the Founding Fathers said that WE THE PEOPLE established the Constitution to promote the general Welfare, they did not mean the federal government would have the power to aid education, build roads, and subsidize business. Likewise, Article 1, Section 8 did not give Congress the right to use tax money for whatever social and economic programs Congress might think would be good for the general welfare.

James Madison stated that the general welfare clause was not intended to give Congress an open hand to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. If by the general welfare, the Founding Fathers had meant any and all social, economic, or educational programs Congress wanted to create, there would have been no reason to list specific powers of Congress such as establishing courts and maintaining the armed forces. Those powers would simply have been included in one all-encompassing phrase, to promote the general welfare.

John Quincy Adams, sixth President of the United States, once observed: Our Constitution professedly rests upon the good sense and attachment of the people. This basis, weak as it may appear, has not yet been found to fail.

It is NOT the governments business (constitutionally) to help individuals in financial difficulty. Once they undertake to provide those kinds of services, they must do so with limited resources, meaning that some discriminating guidelines must be imposed. (so many who need that kind of help- so little resources to provide it.)

The Founding Fathers said in the preamble that one reason for establishing the Constitution was to promote the general welfare. What they meant was that the Constitution and powers granted to the federal government were not to favor special interest groups or particular classes of people. There were to be no privileged individuals or groups in society. Neither minorities nor the majority was to be favored. Rather, the Constitution would promote the general welfare by ensuring a free society where free, self-responsible individuals - rich and poor, bankers and shopkeepers, employers and employees, farmers and blacksmiths - would enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, rights expressed in the Declaration of Independence.

Quoting the Tenth Amendment, Jefferson wrote: I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people. To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition.

Writing about the general welfare clause in 1791, Thomas Jefferson saw the danger of misinterpreting the Constitution. The danger in the hands of Senators and Congressmen was that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please. Unlike public officials during Jeffersons time, our modern-day legislators have a very loose interpretation of the Constitution. The result is that government has mushroomed into a monolithic bureaucracy.

Once the government opens its arms (and bank accounts), it divides the citizens into two groups: those who receive direct (personal, individual) benefit from the government, and those who do not. That is why the founders designed a FEDERAL system of government that provided only for the GENERAL (meaning- non-specific) WELFARE of the people by confining its services to things like national defense and interstate commerce. It leaves to the states the issues of HOW or WHEN other services are provided to specific sub-groups. HOWEVER (This is critical) the new government must represent the BEST INTERESTS of all the people, which logically means that it MUST be limited in scope, for the MORE a government undertakes, the more oppressive it becomes. Government MUST be ANCHORED in fundamental principles (see lecture notes).

If you advocate for federal spending on social welfare programs, you are describing a redistribution of income (MY income) for the benefit of Specific individual citizens INSTEAD of (for example) a strong national defense. Which of those activities is the government LEGALLY REQUIRED to perform? (hint: Art. I, Sec. 8, U.S. Constitution.)

If the Federal government MUST do certain things, and something is NOT EXPRESSLY STATED in the constitution as a duty of Federal Government, then HOW (or WHOM) should any other services be provided? (Hint: Tenth Amendment)

-- Edited by gerryvz on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 10:10:22 PM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

gerryvz wrote:
I really think we ought to get PowerStroker together with cascade and McLiar.

What do you think, SELLC? Should I formally introduce them?

Actually he went to BenzWorld.org and registered an account not long ago. His V8 Cafe access was terminated, but then he claimed to have had a lapse in judgement and was helplessly sucked in by their brand of liberalism.

So... It appears you werent far off with your assumptions.

What is money? Money is a form of Control. That's it, nothing more and nothing less.

I don't think I have to remind you boys what money cannot buy.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

The Federalist papers are not law, and I don't debate religion.

If the Constitution isn't a living document, then how come your wife can vote, and why doesn't your family have a huge staff of slaves?

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 10:11:46 PM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker, don't you feel the Grey Poupon signature is a little much?

You been digging at Gerry to give you information for weeks now, and he shares a little personal info with you and immediately it's a signature talking point. LOL

He could have a trillion bazillion dollars, but I have never known Gerry to throw his weight around when it comes to money. He's just here expressing his thoughts. This is much like throwing out the baby with the bath water. There are some rich folks who cheated their way to the top, but not everyone who has been successful is a cheat PowerStroker.

I think the Democrats like to come down on people just because they are weathly, meanwhile most of them Democrats are filthy rich themselves. Who do they think they are kidding?

If Gerry did inherit money (and I am not saying he did because I really don't know or care) whats that to anyone else? If I died I would want all my money and possessions to be handed down to my family. I'd be fucking pissed if some liberal fuck tried to redistribute my wealth to someone else.

I just don't get it PowerStroker, you really seem to hate Gerry because you are convinced he has a lot of money.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

You've got it all wrong Rex, I don't hate Gerry. and I'm aware that he is simply expressing opinions. The thing is, his opinions were formulated as a result of the reality in which he lives, and it's important that he learn that the reality in which most of us live, is quite different. I could tell by how he presents himself that he has a false sense of superiority, and I'm just disapointed in him for being so anti-working class. Sure, he may have had some rough patches in his life, but in his case, there was always a safety net in the form of rich parents or grandparents to bail him out of a jam, or pay for his education ect. I'm just trying to help him see the world isn't as nice a place for a lot of people who weren't born in to privledge. Once I succeed in educating him, then I can pull the Grey Poupon ad... Which I think is hillarious and fitting for the moment. I spanked him once and he said he wasn't going to talk politics on this site anymore. Then he got cocky again and now needs another spanking. You see Rex, I'm doing him a favor, it's called tough love, and he'll actually be a much better person when I'm done with him. Much like a father sometimes has to spank a child, I don't do this out of hate, I do this, because I care, and I want him to grow up to be a man I can be proud of one day.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 11:25:22 PM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Gerry is no more arrogant than any other swinging dick in this forum.

Really no one knows what kind of life Gerry has had except for Gerry. I do know that most spoiled rich folks would not even think of getting their hands dirty. Gerry on the other hand does not seem to mind.

I am not going to go into the details of my family, but I can assure you they are many 100 X better off than me, and always have been in terms of cash reserves. My old man and gramps are fucking evil, they would see me starve before giving me a penny. Hell I was near death once and had to beg just to get some money to get well, and even then it was the bare minimum, no cosmetics.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go back out in the garage and work for a living. Unlike you PowerStroker I don't have a big union to fuck my employer, I don't have a service writer to fuck my customers, and if shit goes to all hell I don't get no hand outs to carry me thru (aka unemployment). Yes some people do pay into unemployment, but 99 fucking weeks is just another form of welfare.

I say the fucking middle class has it too easy, and the rich aren't as rich as they think they are. The people that keep this world turning are the same people who would keep it turning if all hell broke loose and money was no longer worth the paper it was printed on. To those people (myself included) wealth is measured differently.

This whole fucking world economy could turn upside down and I know for a fact I could take care of mine living off of nothing more than the fat of the mother fucking land.

-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 01:58:06 AM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Well, you live in the same reality as me, so if you come to the wrong conclusions, I accept it as a personality trait that a spanking won't likely fix. I still have hope for Gerry though.

gerryvz · Member

Give it up PowerStroker, you're fucked because of the path you chose. Get used to it. Like I said, if I was in the Congress I'd be leading the charge to bust every union possible and throw all union members (and particularly their bosses) out on the streets. You included.

gerryvz · Member

And by the way, people who work for large corporations who invent and patent stuff, don't profit from it. EVerything goes to the corporation.

Again, it shows how ignorant you are about corporate America, PowerStroker. You didn't spank me at all, I just decided that arguing with you is pointless. If you think you can teach me anything, you are truly more naiive than you think me to be. In fact, I'd posit that you're more clueless than some of these Benzworld idiots !!

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:
Well, you live in the same reality as me, so if you come to the wrong conclusions, I accept it as a personality trait that a spanking won't likely fix. I still have hope for Gerry though.

Let's recap your reality PowerStroker,

(1) Your big labor union negotiates your contract/hourly rate

(2) Your dealership brings in the customers

(3) Your dealerships service writer greets, writes up and handles the customer, this includes contacting the customer getting an authorization and all the necessary "business".

(4) Your dealerships parts department looks up, pulls and hands you the parts

(5) Your porter washes the vehicle and parks it in the lot.

The only fucking thing you do is turn the wrench PowerStroker! LOL! You don't worry about anything else! LOL, The dealership pays to train you, pays for your lift and workspace. They also pay for most all "major" equipment outside of some chump change hand and air tools. ($60K is chump change to a shop owner with multiple bays)

So tell me PowerStroker... How in the FUCK could you ever live in my reality? My reality would crush and consume you whole in less than a week.

I been a CERTIFIED TECH since 1993 (I turned 18 in July of 1993) with NO GAPS. Before that I was working as a mechanic in training since the ripe old age of 8.

How about you PowerStroker? Were you born into it? Or were you just sworn in it? I myself can handle all 5 things above plus fix the fucking car and about 3 more things not even on the list. How about you?

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Well Rex, It might surprise you to know that I have a following of loyal customers that follow me whenever I change dealerships, so there must be something I bring to the table.

As for my friend Gerry, you're not exactly on the fast path toward getting Grey Poupon taken down. Now if you fellas will excuse me, I've got a full day of work to put in, as my repeated attempts to enter the lucky sperm club have failed.

gerryvz · Member

-- Edited by gerryvz on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 02:42:57 PM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Hitler's Nazi party used Socialism in their name, but they were at the other extreme of the political spectrum - Fascism, which you are much closer to than me.

Marxism on the other hand does represent the far left extreme, so I am closer Marx than you, but he's a little too far to the left for my liking. Obama is appropriately pictured right in the middle representing the happy centrist medium... Kinda like Goldilocks - not too Socialist, and not too fascist, but Juuuuussst right.

gerryvz · Member

If you think Obama is centrist, you obviously didn't pay attention to his voting record as a US Senator, where he was rated by non-partisan watchers as THE MOST LIBERAL US Senator. He was even to the left of Teddy Kennedy !!

Your definition of "centrist" is out of the mainstream (to the left) of your own party. So I guess that means that the the 99 other US Senators are right-wingers !!

It is just this kind of delusional thinking by liberals that leaves me shaking my head. To think that the most liberal/left position is mainstream, so everything else in the party is to the right of center.

SELLC, tell me if I'm off-base here?!?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

gerryvz wrote:
SELLC, tell me if I'm off-base here?!?

By PowerStrokers educated and professional standards of how to pick a winner a bio-hazard would be considered "Juuuuuust right".

Then again we are talking about a party that suggest "Passing legislation in order to see whats in it".

-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 03:54:29 PM

gerryvz · Member

PowerStroker,

Read the attached 2-page document, about the OWS movement.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I wonder if the patriot post felt the same way about tea party rallies. Somehow I doubt it.

Your Sith mind tricks won't work on me my friend. Conservative opinion editorials don't cause me to re-evaluate my positions. I can however be swayed if

you make a compelling case using non-partisan facts from reputable sources. I know that takes you a little bit out of your comfort zone, but that's what it will take.