So we agree that none of this is Biden's fault, that's good. 

I'm not opposed to the idea of a standard diagnostic protocol, but I question the feasibility of it. Now with every single system of the vehicle being controlled by networked computers, and so much network traffic exists that they need multiple networks to accommodate this, I just don't see a one size fits all diagnostic solution being possible. I will agree that manufacturers should make all of their special tools, service information, and software available to the public for the same price their dealerships have to pay, but that's it.

You have a right to bear arms too, but it doesn't mean you get a free gun.

Rastus, you are so incredibly infantile in your thinking on this matter that it's almost spooky!

There are a GREAT MANY things on newer cars that go bad ALL OF THE TIME! Many of these things, while small -- have a MAJOR roll in safety warning systems from back up sensors, to cameras and side detection systems! ALL OF THEM VERY IMPORTANT to helping people avoide accidents! These NEW SYSTEMS NEED TO HAVE A STANDARD PROTOCOL for diagnostics! Why on Earth automakers have gotten away with cording off modern day ABS and stability control systems is BEYOND ME! It's OUTRAGOUS that this has been allowed to go on as long as it has! It's sheer greed wrapped in madness!

Furthermore, how many times have I got to tell you Rastus? Just because the powertrain consists of an electric "motor" in place of an ICE, and it's gas tank replaced with a battery cell -- does not change the fact you STILL have brakes, suspension, axles, interior and exterior parts that will need service! Furthermore, wheels and tires are STILL bolted on these cars! Wiper blades, washer solvent, YOU NAME IT! You have gone way off into the deep end with this Alien garbage if you have taken your eye off the automotive ball Rastus! Consider this an intervention! WAKE UP!

With regards to high amperage dangers related to service, there should also be a standard and EASY protocol for ANYONE to cut off the high AMP circut for service or ANY emergency! These people who design these cars think they are so effing smart, but any REAL mechanic will tell you there are many ways to skin a cat, yet many more ways to make a car! Seeing the manufactures and their hired goons go to lengths to trick people like yourself is not surprising... they have been doing this since the invention of the delay feature on windshield wipers! 

Your statement that only a couple things can fail is absolute and total rubbish! It's toxic radioactive ignorance is what it is! THERE ARE A GREAT MANY THINGS TO GO WRONG AND THEY WILL! To expect everyone to understand this is a losing battle -- and for that reason we need standardized protocols in place that ensure even some green horn working his first day on the shop floor can quickly and easily service someones automobile regardless how old or new it is! These vehicles ALL opperate on public roads and pose a public safety hazard to innocent bystanders! If a reverse sensor is out and some kid gets run over because some slime-ball auto manufacture made it's safty systems un-accesable then I'd say THEY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE! Can't tell you how many back up and or collision sensors I have seen failed that totally turns off the entire system as a whole! Yet they lock us out of this! But guess what POWERSTROKER -- we are WAY ahead of you and dealership efforts to put people in danger! Anyone looking to find a faulty backup sensor can do so by using their cell phone to record a video while naming off the number of the sensor while placing the microphone in front of each one! On playback you will hear an audible distortion when the sensor is working, and on sensors that have failed there will be no noise! So keep that in mind because there is as I said, more than one way to skin an auto manufacture!

Oh and by the way PowerStroker! Here is ANOTHER article that calls out your BF at the NHTSA (who was put in his possition by Biden) calling for auto manufatures to "ignore the law"... You got some splainin to do pal! You can shove your politics up your a$$!

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/wary-automakers-repair-solution-174500281.html

Rastus wrote:

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Should you have "so many" of these shyte-boxes lining up Stellar, go back to school, spend-up some bux for the course ( tax deductable ), & then come-back & teach us once you're Certified :) !

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Excuse you Rastus! I'm MASTER CERTIFIED +2 and can perform ANY repair on ANY car!

You better recognize spaceboy! 

SELLC wrote:

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Rastus wrote:

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Should you have "so many" of these shyte-boxes lining up Stellar, go back to school, spend-up some bux for the course ( tax deductable ), & then come-back & teach us once you're Certified :) !

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Excuse you Rastus! I'm MASTER CERTIFIED +2 and can perform ANY repair on ANY car!

You better recognize spaceboy! 

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So what's the problem then ?...

You won't be seeing these cars whilst under warranty Stellar, though perhaps tire-changes, & maybe brakes are acceptable items to not void a warranty.

I'd simply let customers know the above, unless of course they need a recharge...Perhaps a recharge station might be worth considering if you want their business ?...

PowerStroker wrote:

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SELLC wrote:

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Just because the powertrain consists of an electric "motor" in place of an ICE, and it's gas tank replaced with a battery cell -- does not change the fact you STILL have brakes, suspension, axles, interior and exterior parts that will need service! Furthermore, wheels and tires are STILL bolted on these cars! Wiper blades, washer solvent, YOU NAME IT! You have gone way off into the deep end with this Alien garbage if you have taken your eye off the automotive ball Rastus! Consider this an intervention! WAKE UP!

You'd be surprised by the complexity of the battery itself. The battery has it's own thermal regulating system, which is controlled by a computer. The battery also has an internal computer for monitoring the health and temperature of each cell pack, and regulates charging to each cell pack individually. The battery unit also contains the high voltage contactors that only close and allow current to be applied to the traction motors if multiple computers give the green light to do so. And there is a module that controls vehicle charging and converts AC to DC current for charging. There are safety disconnects to protect you if you are working outside the battery, but if one of the high voltage contactors is shorted or if you are working inside the battery you still need to be very careful.

Can't tell you how many back up and or collision sensors I have seen failed that totally turns off the entire system as a whole! Yet they lock us out of this! But guess what POWERSTROKER -- we are WAY ahead of you and dealership efforts to put people in danger! Anyone looking to find a faulty backup sensor can do so by using their cell phone to record a video while naming off the number of the sensor while placing the microphone in front of each one! On playback you will hear an audible distortion when the sensor is working, and on sensors that have failed there will be no noise! So keep that in mind because there is as I said, more than one way to skin an auto manufacture!

Or you could simply go into datalogger and select the parking aid sensor pids, then put the car in reverse with the key on but engine off and simply walk behind the vehicle to view in real time which one isn't responding to your movement. But you'd need a better scan tool than the old MT2500 probably. Lately broken wires at the sensor connectors have been more common than actual parking aid sensor failures, but it could go either way.

Oh and by the way PowerStroker! Here is ANOTHER article that calls out your BF at the NHTSA (who was put in his possition by Biden) calling for auto manufatures to "ignore the law"... You got some splainin to do pal! You can shove your politics up your a$$!

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/wary-automakers-repair-solution-174500281.html

 

"Data such as speed, camera footage and sensor logs from owners own cars would still be off limits."

What diagnostic relevance does speed and camera footage have? I don't even have access to camera footage or think it even gets recorded anyway. What "sensor logs" are they denying you? Perhaps these particular advocates of right to repair want all automotive software to be open-source? You don't need to understand every line of code in every module in order to repair a vehicle. If the layman were given access to all of that, then they could change it and modify the way the vehicle operates in ways that are potentially dangerous and/or illegal. This would open up the auto makers to an enormous amount of liability. What you want goes far beyond right to repair, and into trade secret information that I have never had access to and never needed. Can a computer repair shop not do their job without Microsoft revealing their source code? If that were true, then only Microsoft could repair a computer. You ask too much my friend.

There's a lot of bitching, but short of a software error that needs to be resolved at the engineering level, I have yet to hear an actual example of something that couldn't be diagnosed with the service information and tools the car makers are already offering to sell you.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Tuesday 18th of July 2023 08:13:16 PM

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ARE YOU EVEN CERTIFIED AS A MECHANIC ANYMORE POWERSTROKER?

Because according to your OWN admission in here, you let them all expire. You let your ASE certs AND your Ford certs expire! I told you not to do it, but you did it anyway!

SIT DOWN!

NEXT!

PowerStroker wrote:

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Or you could simply go into datalogger and select the parking aid sensor pids, then put the car in reverse with the key on but engine off and simply walk behind the vehicle to view in real time which one isn't responding to your movement. But you'd need a better scan tool than the old MT2500 probably. Lately broken wires at the sensor connectors have been more common than actual parking aid sensor failures, but it could go either way. 

"Data such as speed, camera footage and sensor logs from owners own cars would still be off limits."

What diagnostic relevance does speed and camera footage have? I don't even have access to camera footage or think it even gets recorded anyway. What "sensor logs" are they denying you? Perhaps these particular advocates of right to repair want all automotive software to be open-source? You don't need to understand every line of code in every module in order to repair a vehicle. If the layman were given access to all of that, then they could change it and modify the way the vehicle operates in ways that are potentially dangerous and/or illegal. This would open up the auto makers to an enormous amount of liability. What you want goes far beyond right to repair, and into trade secret information that I have never had access to and never needed. Can a computer repair shop not do their job without Microsoft revealing their source code? If that were true, then only Microsoft could repair a computer. You ask too much my friend.

There's a lot of bitching, but short of a software error that needs to be resolved at the engineering level, I have yet to hear an actual example of something that couldn't be diagnosed with the service information and tools the car makers are already offering to sell you.

 

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Obviously, PowerStroker -- I'm not looking to get into battery manufacturing or even re-manufaturing! But access to ALL the vitals (aka DATA) of the battery should be not only available to the technician, but to the owner as well from the onboard GUI which ALL electric cars have now days.

Further, you are correct that the vehicle has to be placed in reverse with the key on (engine off) to be able to test the sensors -- and YES, sometimes the connections/plugs are bad but 80% of the time it's a bad sensor! Broken wires are gravy because they do not require any parts to search out or buy... But if you think the access for safety systems should not be part of the new OBD III then I'll just say there is a special place in hell for people like that... and I have already said they are trying to move EVERY option a car has to a subscription service! From the power windows, to the HVAC, to the heated seats, entertainment systems, even the performance of the vehicle! I say this practice needs to be PLAIN OUTLAWED before we even have to see the absurdity of what the manufactures will try and get away with! Sure, subscriptions are valid for Media Sirrus and On-Star or whatever, and cell data usage and such... but features such as heated seats, windows, basic radio being interrupted for a late payment? THAT'S BULLSHIT! And it needs to be addressed NOW because a lot of high end cars are already doing just that! 

I know that Ford's has YOU programed that Software fixes problems, but the reality is the software only goes outside of it's paramiters due to a MECHANICAL defect! And that is another LAW that needs to be passed before Elon Musk and Tesla saddle people with mountains of debt for that freakshow Cybertruck he is three years late to release! There needs to be SOLID legistation that states a vehicle MUST be solid to run on it's BASIC and ORIGINAL PROGRAMING by default. The logic for these vehicles needs to be solid enough that the basic programing for the systems is BURNT ON THE CHIP for a default MY "release"... irregardless of any new updates or recalls - except for ones done "over the air" or at no charge to the customer! These manufactures are selling automotive systems, they have to meet basic transportation needs by default. Car companies are preying on the complexities of these systems to circumvent regulation... all of this stuff we think is "new" today will be out of date crap in just five years! That is why these regulations are important! So we don't have a bunch of crap in our landfills as the auto makers build crap that prevents people from servicing their vehicles beyond the manufactures support. REMEMBER, people are BUYING these cars, not LEASING them! There is an expectation of merchantability for a purchase! If car makers want to switch to a subscription based model (AKA "LEASE") then what they are proposing is fine, but NOT in the case of a BUY!

Customers should have access to their cameras live data 24/7/365! If their vehicles systems are already part of an "air" network, then they should have access to ALL of that information on demand as well too! I'm not saying such a thing should be free, unless it's part of a lease or subscription -- but access should be there for the owner, who can then authorize his or her repairperson to use in the serice or repair of their vehicle. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Also, if someone want to buy factory service equipment, manuals and parts then YES, these should be made available as well... for a cost of course.

Rastus wrote:

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  LOL !

R1 (a). Yes.

     (b). So now you see how a little research fixed the issue...Good stuff...

R2. That's a matter of opinion lol !

R3. The choice is yours on whether to take-on the work or not...Here in Oz, though Mechanics / Technicians are trained in electrical repair, we have another trade that goes by the name Auto Electrician, & I'd suggest that's the first place I'd take one-of-these vehicles for electrical-type repairs, after warranty...

And in a business situation, if I wasn't able to identify an issue within 15-30-minutes, I'd call-in the Auto-electrician, or suggest sending the car there, as it's beyond my skill level / knowledge. Then, I'd ask the Auto-electrician what the issue was, & how he went about resolving it. He'd give the low-down, since I gave him the work. This is the usual-way things go-down here in Oz, the trade helps the trade. There's only so much time to be wasted on something that isn't possible for you to address, within the set time constraints. Besides, there's other things more important.

R4. I actually have the Mitsubihi Salesman code-of-practice, & they are a highly trained bunch of *unts. So no thanks, I couldn't live with myself. If you like, I'll scan & post some of it up here, so that you can see how customers are already scammed from the moment they walk on a dealership lot.

R5. I'm sure an amendment will be made, & likely reimbursement from his employer. He is a valued employee. And yes, in part, my own Marine Engineering Certificates have expired...But in my case, I already re-validated once before at around 5-k out of my own pocket, for a 5-year validity. But now, since I haven't acquired the 12-months minimum Sea-time, I have 5-courses to complete at around 2.5-k each, & one of these certificates, is not yet available to complete locally. And even if it was, that would be 12.5-k, 2-months of my time, & no job to go to. COrona VIrus Disease 2019 sux. Most big-corp-shipping people are only employing vaxxed people, so it looks like that games over lol !

R6. I'm holding-on as tight as possible !

Stellar, STRESS is time wasted, & interest paid-in-advance, on a debt that has not yet been incurred...

 

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RR1 (a) & (b) - Yes Rastus, as a Master Mechanic +2 -- I'm expected to be competent to work on any automobile new or old! I don't have to abide by the "Code" as I could just as easily specialize in one or a handfull of makes as many shops do. I could also specialize in specific categories if I so chose... but the reality is that I have to do a LOT of research ALL the time! Outside of physical size requirements of my workshop, and laws with regards to vehicles above 10,000 lb GVW -- if someone has the money, I will give it everything I got to get their needs met! 

RR2 - Fair enough, but I have been around long enough to know that you guys take great satisfaction in yanking my chain and rattling my cage! In the case of PowerStroker, he will go to Paul Bunyan lenghts to get a rise out of me, whirling tails about him hopping up on managers desks, whipping out his junk and pissing in their Cheerios! And then add some shit like, "And he will beg me to do it again tomorrow!"... 

RR3 - I have no choice Rastus... That ship set sail when I turned 25. There is no escaping the trade now, I'm in too deep! As a "Master" Mechanic I'm certfied in electrical and could work as an electrical specialist if I wanted, but why would I limit myself? Plus I got in bed with the Government... I have to work until my 7

RR4 - I have worked for a few Dealerships and manufactures too Rastus, not for long -- but long enough to know exactly what you are talking about... 

RR5 - I dunno, I just feel like if someone is serious about their trade they wont let their certifications expire... since my test are done at the State of Michigan it's easy enough to take or renew your certs while you're there getting your license and vehicle plates renewed. Outside of these re-certification requirements it's just a matter of sending in your license fees. In your case the certifications are very expensive, plus you're getting older... but if you were 30 years younger - would you have let them expire? I bet not.

RR6 - Me too brother! Me too! Don't forget, my guberment loan payments start in exactly ONE YEAR from today... I'm stuck working into my 70's, so you can see why I'm so passionate about this subject (politics be damned) because there are still many decades to go. I'm not stressing Rastus, I'm pushing!

Oh, and by the way PowerStroker... Not even your FORD issued certifications would qualify you to work as a mechanic in the state of Michigan... You would have to still take the State Test for the dealership to legally allow you to work for compensation, unless as part of a service or fleet agreement (aka the big Diesel truck and bus boys / public transit).

I often times will try and add a catagory to my list each time depending if I'm in a hurry or not... but at this point I have all the Auto certs you can possibly get... I guess it wouldn't hurt to get an autobody cert, or another HDT certification -- even though I don't do that work.

Rastus wrote:

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4. I have the money to complete the re-validations, but they're only good for 5-years. And I've done this once before, out-of-my-own pocket, but sadly, Mr.Trumpdt being elected didn't get me any more work, as "you" promised he would lol.

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Whoa... Rastus! When I voted for Trump it was ALWAYS on the premise that he was PRO-USA... I don't know how I could have ever implied that a win by Trump would be a win for Australia... I get that we're allies, but nobody is perfect!

So Trump ended up calling back all his gains with COVID... that was a "GLOBAL" crisis, and while we might not know for another few decades (at least the statutes of limitations) what really happened there -- it hurts that you would think I'd mislead you!

At the time Trump was the best man for the job IMHO! I have seen some promising things under Biden and the Democrats -- however I have to remain objective... A lot of communist nations dictators cling to power, switching up -- or the "New York shuffle" as they call it, is the only way to beat them at that game. 

If it makes you feel better, not even PowerStrokers ASE certifications - and my renewals plus recertification cost COMBINED would amount to even 10% of what you were being asked to pay for your renewals! If I were you I wouldn't have renewed them without a contract either! It's not like you can just take them kind of high level certs to the shop down the street!

So don't take it the wrong way Mate! You did the right thing! Or at least, what I would have done at the time for that kind of $$$!

SELLC wrote:

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Ok... just checking! But so everyone is clear, these certifications are ONLY GOOD FOR FORD'S, correct? Whereas your ASE Certification "was" a nationwide body that covered ALL makes, right? Because in many states like Texas, and even your own they don't legally require certifications to work as a mechanic. In many states the ASE is the only game in town to thump ones mechanic chest.

 

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True, those are Ford Certifications, although dealerships of other makes may take some of them as credit toward their certification programs depending on the specific rules of the manufacturer. I know Ford will accept some GM certifications for example.

Even if none of that were true though, I still have a degree in automotive service that follows me everywhere and never expires. If I ever move to Michigan or another state that has their own state certification test, I'm sure I could pass it on the first try. I have a pile of patches, but never felt the need to sew one on my uniforms to thump my chest. People can tell just by looking at me what I'm all about.