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Post Info TOPIC: Experience with engine remanufacturing companies?


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Experience with engine remanufacturing companies?


Well, the 460 EFI engine in my 93 F250 is getting tired and has lots of metal glitter in the oil. I've been thinking about rebuilding it myself, but the downtime would be measured in months, and with parts and machine shop fees I'd be close to what a remanufactured long block costs. So I've been checking the online reviews for Jasper, S&J, ATK, Tri Star, and a few others. Reviews for all of them are hit and miss, and it seems like some of those companies aren't very good about honoring their warranties. I also thought about picking up a used engine and rebuilding it while keeping the truck usable in the meantime to keep the downtime at a minimum, but rebuildable cores are getting awfully expensive. So I haven't decided what to do yet. I'm wondering if any of you have had any good or bad experience with any of the big rebuilding companies? I like the idea of getting one with a warranty, but if they don't honor it then what's the point?



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Yo PowerStroker,

Forget about the re-manufactured engines imo. They're OK, but generally built to a budget.

I'd want to find-out where the source of the metal-particulates are coming from myself. Possibly worn rocker-gear & push-rods...

See if you can organize with your boss a few week-ends at the dealership to get matters sorted out. Ideally, one full Saturday ( if possible ) should see the engine out & stripped-down. You can then on Monday send your heads out for a freshen-up, as that's where most of your money will go , whilst you organize rings, bearings, oil-pump, hi-performance camshaft of say 30 / 70 spec. (since it's a truck), roller rockers & gasket-set. If you do opt on a new Hi-po camshaft, a kit will see the recommended lifters, push-rods & valve-springs & retainers in the one package. Bottom-ends / short-motors are usually pretty good on all push-rod engines, & fresh rings with bearings I'd suggest is all you need.

Cylinder-heads will need K-liners / valve-guide reconditioning, possibly some valves & new springs. And whist you're at it, fit up some hardened steel valve-seats if not already fitted. A 5-angle valve-job sill see massive flow-rate improvement at all RPM's. If your heads are aluminum, they'll likely need only resurfacing, as everything else is able to be refreshed by yourself.

*30 / 70 cam-grinds generally see HP improvement everywhere in the RPM range, with a little increase in top-end power, up to possibly 5,000-RPM from what was likely 4,200-RPM std.And you don't need a high-stall convertor if an auto.

Everything else can be done the following Saturday at your workshop, unless you insist on new camshaft-bearings fitted, where you might as-well have a machine-shop hot-tank the block, fit new cam bearings & lightly hone the cylinders out to bed-in new rings.

The following Saturday will see you assemble the engine, & the next week-end have it installed.

The 460's are not massive rev-hungry engines, so a re-fresh imo is likely all that will be needed, but you never know until you take a look inside. And at least this way she'll be fine for at least 50,000-miles, & then you can spend-up next time on the full blue-printed engine.

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Well, that all sounds good, but the local machine shops are scheduling several weeks out. I have only 1 bay at work these days and can't down it with my own vehicle unless its a same day kind of thing, so all of whatever I do is going to be happening at home. I don't really need a performance build on this, it's just a pickup truck, but I want it to be reliable, and with the glitter in the oil I really don't trust it right now. I might opt for a slightly bigger camshaft, but I have to be really careful not to over do it because mine is a bank fired speed-density fuel injection system that doesn't take kindly to anything that changes engine vacuum.

At work we generally don't do rebuilds and just swap out short and long blocks... It's been a while since I built an engine for myself, it might be fun, but I kind of just want to swap out the long block in a weekend and be done with it. Then I won't have parts and pieces everywhere for months while I wait for things to come back from the machine shop. Plus anything I build myself wouldn't have a warranty. Lots to consider here.

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Hey PowerStroker,

I found this for your general reading considerations, from "Driving-line"...

qt."Key to building any 460 V8 is proper flowing heads. The earliest stock heads (C9VE or DOVE castings) provide the best factory flow, but there are plenty of aftermarket options out there, including aluminum units that are significantly lighter than the original Ford monsters. Properly-sized exhaust ports are necessary when installing a hotter cam in the 460, as '70s-era designs (which offer excellent intake area but poor exhaust restrictions) simply can't breathe deep enough to match the demands. Trick Flow, Ford Racing, and Edelbrock all make high performance heads that fit the big block".

"Some builders also opt to go the stroker route with the 460, which can lead to displacements of up to 545 cubic inches for those seeking low-rpm torque that will rattle the windows of everything within a two block radius. With the right carb setup, or a stand-alone electronic fuel injection system, it's easy to punch out 500hp from the 7.5L motor, more than enough grunt to have some serious fun in a cruiser or a drag car on a reasonable budget".

"From a modern perspective the Ford 460 big block is cheap and plentiful, making it a tempting target for Blue Oval builders. With so many trucks and large cars having made use of the engine, it's easy to find, and there are a host of performance parts now available that more than make up for its post-smog design flaws. Although the engines are dimensionally quite large, they are relatively low and flat, which makes them easier to fit under the hood of a wide range of vehicles, including Fox platform models like the Mustang and the Thunderbird".

"Sibling to the 429, which was the last true muscle car big block built by the Blue Oval, the secret to the 460's success was its ability to churn out mountains of torque even when hobbled by '70s-era emissions equipment. By the time the age of electronic fuel injection had rolled around, the 460 had found a comfortable niche in Ford's family of pickups, alongside a healthy interest from the after-market as a crate motor".

"Today, the 460 V8 sits as one of Ford's best kept secrets. While the 5.0 small block might get most of the attention, followed by its modern Coyote cousin, this big block has a lot to offer project builders seeking something different.Both the 429 cubic inch and 460 cubic inch V8 came from the 385 series of engines that hit the scene in the late 1960s. The new engines shared the same bore but featured a different stroke (the 3.85 inch measure that gave the family its name). Other differences included stouter construction in the 460, which was intended primarily to be used in luxury sedans where overall weight wasn't as much of a concern (with the engine checking in at a whopping 720 lbs). You can thank the overbuilt motor's cast iron heads and three-inch main bearings for much of its mass, but it's worth nothing that in general the 385 family of engines was lighter than both the FE and the MEL big blocks that had come before them at Ford".


* It would seem that an Auto-recycler that would offer you a reasonable runner for a good price is where to go, so that you simply buy-time to rebuild your own into blue-print specs.

* As for your camshaft needs, most name-brands will have an uprated-over-stock cam that will drop straight in, & work well with std EFI system...There is room to breathe here, since many EFI systems consider the "std range" ( vacuum ) of operation to be from 17-22'' inches of mercury at idle. It's even possible that the cam-spec I recommended fits within the upper limit, but I'd guess a 25 / 65 single-pattern is what you need, but speak with the cam people. And since the above article mentions exhaust flow issues, perhaps a dual-pattern cam is the go, with a little more lift & duration on the exhaust lobe to help flow...

* Roller Rockers will keep your cam & heads in great-shape for countless thousands of miles over std-kit. When the rocker-cover-gaskets eventually weep, start your engine with the covers removed, & check for push-rods that are bent. You'll see them straight away as they rotate around.

I hope this helps. It looks like a great engine to build-up...And don't forget that your dealership will have its own tried & tested Ford factory backed hot-up parts, so you can guarantee the numbers claimed with OEM parts...






-- Edited by Rastus on Monday 18th of December 2023 12:27:43 AM

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Yo,

Here's a link to the Ford Performance Parts Catalogue...It's about 37mb to download, but has nice goodies inside featuring the 460-V8 & bits & pieces plus part numbers...And speaking of cam-bearing replacement, it seems that the modern improvements have needle-roller-bearing replacement for this engine, among other trick parts...The reading starts at page 147...Keep your wallet closed folks lol !


performanceparts.ford.com/download/PDFS/2020FPPcatalog.pdf


And here's link to Comp-Cams technical guide, that should help with any valve-train decision making. They used to have a program that selected camshafts for you after feeding in the data of your vehicle, but I haven't found it yet.

And with all the catalogues I have at home re camshaft selection, there is "one" very similar spec cam that they all make for the 460, though it seems to sit outside PowerStroker's needs. Likely this is the one you fit to get 1 x hp per cube displacement, & can be used with super-chargers, or turbo's or naturally aspirated engines.


www.compcams.com/ford-technical-info

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Yo,

So here's the link to the "Cam Quest" program, that's pretty cool for selecting your camshaft, after filling in all the data. It will even calculate Hp numbers too, via graph at lower LHS...Simply download & install.


competitionplus.com/drag-racing/new-products/5089-camquest-6-cam-selection-software


And to save PowerStroker the hassle, there seems to be only 1 x cam recommended for trucks, that's EFI Speed Density friendly...


Grind = XE 256H - 14

Part No. = 34-255-5

Power range = 1,000 - 5,2000 RPM ( claimed ).

Adv. Duration, seat to seat = Intake 256-degrees, Exhaust 268-degrees.

Valve lift std rocker ratio = Intake 0.490" Exhaust 0.496"

Valve event timing = Intake 18 - 58 degrees, Exhaust 72 - 16 degrees.

Claimed max. Power & Torque...( I've calculated using std valve sizes which are tiny, 10 to 1 compression ratio, & small-tube extractors with cat )

Max. Power = 315 hp @ 3,500 rpm.

Max Torque = 565 ftlbs @ 2,000 rpm.


There are other complimentary parts to match-up with this cam such as springs & retainers etc, but that's for after selection has been finalized, were only looking around for now. And as guessed in prior posts, this is a dual-pattern cam, with larger duration & lift numbers on the exhaust lobe, to aid the lack of breathing with std heads.


*As you can see, this massive engine is by default, a low revving Torque monster. The selected cam has quite a bit of lift, & yet small event duration numbers comparitively. The std valve sizes are the same as what we had in our Australian 4.2 & 5.0 ltr V-8's, so head-work is a must on this big engine, whilst fitting the largest valves possible into the wedge-head, with healthy porting to suit to lift the rpm operating range peak-power into the 400-hp @ 4,000-rpm range at least. You won't lose economy at all, but spread-out all that torque over a wider rpm band. And a full-length dual exhaust will help breathing too.

Talk about a sleeper motor lol !





-- Edited by Rastus on Monday 18th of December 2023 11:33:05 PM

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Ughhh, I so didn't want to have to do this, but I'm probably going to have to rebuild the one I have.

Nothing like working full time fixing cars, and then spending my time off fixing mine.

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PowerStroker wrote:

Ughhh, I so didn't want to have to do this, but I'm probably going to have to rebuild the one I have.

Nothing like working full time fixing cars, and then spending my time off fixing mine.


 

LOL !

 

You'll be fine...But you'll likely need someone to give you a hand to lift the heads off regardless of them being removed whilst the motor is still in the vehicle. They will be really heavy. I would struggle as a young man to manage our "Cleveland" heads, & needed some help at least to refit them, so as to not damage new head-gasket etc etc. They are heavy.

And since you have a lathe already, instead of taking the heads to a machine-shop, simply kit yourself out with a valve-grinding-tool, & the reaming tools needed to fit valve-guides yourself. Valve seat cutters would be available too. Careful soft grinding of the ports to remove excess casting-dags is all you're really going to need for this motor, as it's going back into your truck. And the money saved might get you some quality extractors if you don't already have them. And if you don't need new valves, at least you can refresh what you have with your new tools, into at least 3 x angles...

Roller-rockers are a must-have item. They'll likely come with guide-plates & screw-in studs, but you'll need to buy suitable hardened push-rods, so they don't turn into shavings from the guide-plates rubbing on them. This is what may be your issue now, with old push-rods losing their hardened surface, & the guide-plate ( if fitted ) shaving them away. Milodon is a good brand for Ford, or Yella Terra. ( These guys supply US-of-A companies their roller rockers & rebrand them, such as Iskendarian etc etc ). And prices are in AUD, so you're looking at nearly 1/2 the cost in US-of-A dollars...Find what you need, & see if e-bay can supply with free postage etc etc.

https://www.totalperformance.net.au/brand/milodon/

https://yellaterragroup.com/landing-page/products/roller-rockers/

But speak to the machine-shop people on what they do to the heads & valve sizes, or check out the specs ( where possible) of what's fitted to the "Performance package heads" already available, so you know what to buy.



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Don't know how I managed to miss this little nugget for the past 10 days... but to "most people", replacing the engine is not considered a "General Auto-Repair HELP!" question... but we are talking about PowerStroker here!

You mention "glitter"... but how does the engine sound? Is it knocking or ticking yet? IIRC the 460 EFI engines were pretty solid mills! Another question I'd have is how many miles are on it? 

As for aftermarket rebuilders, I'd say most of the times it's hit and miss... really just a few notches above what you should expect from a used low mile junk-yard replacement... in other words you're playing the lotto. You really know nothing about the block you're getting on a reman -- was it a boat anchor when they got it? Does it have six sleeves? How good all the rest of the specs on the engine are can be questionable -- and with the costs of just removing and returning a warranty engine itself, it sort of begs the question "Why take the risk?". Can't tell you how many times I have gotten a reman with a sticking valve that turns the exhaust manifold cherry red until the valve finally frees up... or how many times I got one that had sleeves or other rough cores used where the core I sent back seemed less abused than the rebuilt casting I got sent. But most of the times they are fine! Which is much better than the 50/50 chance on a used unit by at least 20%!

This is why I like to rebuild my own engines with the help of a machine shop. In this way I'm able to check their tolerances and catch anything that I don't feel comfortable "letting fly".

How often do you use the truck? You know we're gonna get clobbered this winter! Do you really want your truck down in the winter? That is why I'm curious if the engine is making any noise, or anything that would make it risky to run thru the winter while you explore your options. Are there exhaust manifold leaks that make the truck dangerous to drive in an enclosed heated cabin this winter? If not it might just be a good idea to seek out a low mile used engine to slap in there, as this would be the quickest turn around. The bonus here is if you keep your core, then you can work on the rebuild at your leisure -- making any improvements and other such modifications without being down. If you only drive the truck when the snow gets real deep then it's for sure a better idea to keep the truck together and running until the weather passes, unless of course there are some issues that prevent the truck from being driven in the winter safely.

Two weeks seems to be the standard wait time at most machine shops, often times they just say that to cover their asses. If they know you're a good cash payer you'll probably get bumped up. But two weeks isn't bad! Try getting work done during the summer, or a week before the 4th of July when everyone is hot to get their car on the road for the big cruises. 

I guess a little more input is needed before I could make a suggestion, but it seems you have already made your mind up! A 93 is still just a single o2 sensor MASS-AIR system -- which is pre- OBD-II mandated dual o2 sensor setup, IIRC! That means you could really beef up that 460 without issue! You could even put an inexpensive high flow aftermarket cat converter in there for max performance without much of any computer modifications.

If you have the 460 FI beast, there really is only one option! BUILD IT! That was a rare and sought after truck back in it's day! De-tuned by Ford to keep warranty claims down. You owe it to yourself to put a camshaft, headers, and any other performance goodies they offer on that bad boy! You don't have to go overboard to the point it can't be daily driven, but at least enough to let people know it's not stock. 



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I also might add, for people viewing who are not familar with the 460ci V8 Fuel Injected trucks of the 90's... 460ci = 7.53 LITERS!

This is bigger than the Triton V10 and ALL of Ford's Diesel offerings -- including the legendary Clydesdale 7.3 diesel.

I myself have only worked on / seen TWO of them in the flesh in my entire career. Both of them REALLY BAD MF'ers!

Just an FYI..

This means the idea of finding a clean, used -- low dollar junkyard option would be a pretty hard thing to come by in 2024! IMHO

 



-- Edited by SELLC on Wednesday 27th of December 2023 06:34:59 AM

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Don't get me wrong... 460ci is pretty big for any Ford truck... 

Never mind they put a 500ci engine into 1970's Eldorado Cadillacs... which is damn near 8.2 liters!

1970-cadillac-eldorado.jpeg

But at this point we're just splitting hairs.



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Well, this truck has 140k miles but a very clean rust free body coming from out West. I never drive it in the winter to keep the salt away from it, so I figure I may as well pull the engine and take it apart, maybe this weekend. Once I see where the glitter is coming from and take some measurements I'll come up with a plan of attack. It is definitely a winter project I wasn't planning on, and didn't want, but you're right - It's a chance to put a few goodies in it that otherwise would never happen. I now know where my Ford bonus is going this year.

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Yo,

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the hardening has worn-off the camshaft, & the particulates are essentially the lobes remains, but let's wait & see !!! Oil-pump drive shaft gears get a hard time too with irregular use, since the oil is not around & gravity pulls it all down into the sump.

The 460-V8 came out in some stunningly beautiful cars too imo...At least as appreciable as the Caddy posted above... ( Where are the cow horns ) ???...

 

lincoln_continental_1970_pictures_1_1280x960.jpg

 

 

wallpapers_lincoln_continental-mark-series_1968_1_1280x960.jpg



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One thing is for sure, unlike any of these old boats above (Cadillac or Lincoln) the 460 in PowerStrokers 1993 is fuel injected! Not only is it fuel injected, it's pre OBD-II! Providing it's got a mass air meter, and doesn't have the down-stream 2nd o2 sensor -- then it's a highly modifiable system without all the programing that would be needed on the post 1996 OBD-II vehicles! That's a big bonus! HUGE! It's one of the main reasons the late 1989-1993 5.0 Mustangs had so many different performance bolt-ons.

Speaking of bolt-ons, since the engine is pretty rare -- do they have a lot of aftermarket performance goodies for it? Does Fords still stock most of the parts for it? Or did they do the classic NLA on most of the Ford Genuine parts? 

The glitter could be from something as simple as timing chain sprockets if that engine doesn't use the roller design with the hardened gears. If it does not have a roller chain, I'd make that upgrade for sure! Also, does it have roller lifters? If it does, a nice set or roller rockers would help to make it a full roller engine! Most of the times when you add roller rocker arms you have to modify the valve covers -- not always, but most of the times.

If you end up having it bored 30 over it will become a 466ci or a 7.64 liter (rounded)! It will be most interesting what you find when you open it up! You never mentioned if it has been making any knocking or ticking sounds? 

Wasn't aware the body was so clean, most of that years trucks are rusted away here in Michigan... VERY RARE to see one on the road around these parts anymore. Did the 1993 suspension have the big radius arms with king pins -- or did they have radius arms with the ball joint? I think perhaps the king pins went away in the late 1980's but not sure if they stuck around a little longer on the F250. If it's 4X4 then I'd assume you just got the axle with front leaf spring suspension.

It would be cool if you took photos and let us have a look around the inside of that beast. It would make a heck of a post, maybe even better than your Saturn thread! LOL



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Yo,

Yes indeed Stellar, & 460-V8 is well worth getting excited about, but PowerStroker has mentioned it lives in a truck, & that means good all-round-power is required. I know you're late to the thread, but I have done some home-work on PowerStrokers behalf, if you care to read through the earlier posts.

1. Low-end power is still required.

2. Flat-tappet hydraulic cam is all that's needed. With roller-rockers, they'll last at least 250-k miles with good oil & changes. Even longer with Slick-50 in there.

3. There's a Competition Cams program already attached in another post, & it only recommends 1 x cam for PowerStrokers needs, that being Grind = XE 256H - 14 Part No. = 34-255-5

4. It's been revealed that the exhaust ports are the culprits that with-hold the big-beast breathing. Bigger valves & extractors already suggested.

5. I think that it's quite easy for PowerStroker to get around 400-hp @ around the 4,000-rpm range with the right cam, big-valves ( esp. exhaust ), 5-angle valve-job, dual exhaust system, & possibly after-market cold-air intake with K&N air filter etc .

6. There's also some cam-grinders that will grind-up your own spec cam from blanks. PowerStroker hasn't asked, so I haven't suggested a grind. I have looked at a number of different cam brochures that I have, & they all offer a cam that's nearly identical across all brands. This is the one to go for of course, but it may no suit PowerStroker's needs.

7. Rings & bearings are still cheap to buy, along with gasket sets. I do recommend new cam bearings to be fitted-up, & since PowerStroker has his own lathe, a tool is easily made to do the job.

Looking forward to PowerStroker's further posts, but not his sore back lol !

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No knocking sounds noted yet. Mine is speed density EFI so I can't use a cam with very much overlap (needs at least 113 degrees lobe separation). It had a new Cloyes double roller timing set about 3 years ago when I resealed the timing cover. For a cam I've been looking at a Lunati 06169, but I'm not ordering anything until I take it apart and see what's going on. Keep in mind, I'm not looking to build something that will rotate the Earth here, it's a truck.

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Oh, speed density. That changes a lot! That is pretty much pre-programed, so even boring it out will see some degradation in drivability. If you plan on doing ANY performance work, you might as well plan on getting a re-program... What sucks about speed density is when you go outside of the parameters your idle will just be hunting all the time. Not sure if they offered mass air on your engine, but on earlier Mustangs with speed density it's easy enough to convert them to mass air -- they even sold kits. Did they even offer a 460 option in 1996? Since your truck pretty much runs on input from your MAP sensor and single o2 -- then any kind of performance modification would be a moot point unless you got your computer re-programed.

I mean, how much glitter in the oil are we talking about here? Does it look like metallic paint, or just a few crumbs at the bottom of the drainpan after each oil change? You might just be cleaning out funk from when you had the timing cover off if you barely drive it!

 



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Yo PowerStroker,

That Lunati cam is too big for your needs without a computer remap / flash. The official website page even states not computer compatible.

If you decide to "go for it" since you'll need a re-map anyhow, the 30 / 70 grinds will be perfect for your needs. These are the largest you can go without needing a high-stall-convertor. And these cams will work well with stock manifolds too, & yet you'll appreciate the cam more & more after fitting-up better exhausts etc etc.

Alternatively, the CC item above is the drop-in stock replacement item. See specs above.

I'll post a "Heatseeker" catalog page later-on today, that will give you a great general over-view over 6 x hydraulic grinds, from std to full-race specs, that will help in your decision making.

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Yo,

So here's a good overview of camshaft grinds, hydraulic & solid, so it's a good reference-point / datum for anyone to refer back to, & what the numbers mean regarding advertised operating ranges & power-increases. I put this in so all reading this blurb have a chance of understanding some of it lol !.

It's also worth noting that the BIG 460 engines lost compression in 1972, from a healthy 10.0 : 1 to ( I think 7.5 or 8 : 1 ), so big-lift / long-duration cams are not useful here, since you need good compression to keep the engine working at low RPM speeds. That said, more lift & duration will aid in dynamic compression ratios as the engine spins-up in rpm, making a stronger power-curve & higher rpm potential. The answer here leads us to the middle-grind-cams / the all-rounders.



And also worth noting, is that the same grind camshaft will work / fit in a number of different engine capacities, so it's important to find out if possible, what the test-mule-engine capacity was, for better selection. Generally, it's the largest engine capacity used, but not always. *A smaller capacity engine sees the same cam as a larger one.

 

1. Overview & power-range decisions Heatseeker cam guide.

2. Selection chart from Heetseeker cams. ( These are great cams if you can find one, but Pete passed away a few years ago now. I've used plenty & they work ).

3. Crow Cams comparison chart.

4. Dynotec selection chart. These cams work really well, come numbered & signed by the dude who ground it.



-- Edited by Rastus on Thursday 28th of December 2023 06:57:46 PM

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SELLC wrote:

Oh, speed density. That changes a lot! That is pretty much pre-programed, so even boring it out will see some degradation in drivability. If you plan on doing ANY performance work, you might as well plan on getting a re-program... What sucks about speed density is when you go outside of the parameters your idle will just be hunting all the time. Not sure if they offered mass air on your engine, but on earlier Mustangs with speed density it's easy enough to convert them to mass air -- they even sold kits. Did they even offer a 460 option in 1996? Since your truck pretty much runs on input from your MAP sensor and single o2 -- then any kind of performance modification would be a moot point unless you got your computer re-programed.

I mean, how much glitter in the oil are we talking about here? Does it look like metallic paint, or just a few crumbs at the bottom of the drainpan after each oil change? You might just be cleaning out funk from when you had the timing cover off if you barely drive it!

 


We're talking metallic paint here... I've sold engines to customers for less glitter than I'm seeing in mine.

The 460 EFI was offered in F250/350 trucks through model year 1997 in the old body style. The overwhelming majority of them are all OBD1 speed density bank fired engines like mine. There are a few rare California emissions versions that were OBD2 with MAF and a CKP. I'm not sure if those had sequential fuel injection or not, but I know they had to add the CKP for the misfire monitor aspect of OBD2. Those engines can be identified by a 4 prong sensor tone ring behind the harmonic damper, and a different timing cover with crank sensor provision. 

For the speed density trucks like mine, the computer only has a small window of self adjustability. It will handle an overbore that adds a few cubic inches, but I can't put a stroker kit in it without getting a custom tune. And since the OBD1 PCM isn't flashable, it would involve hardware changes. Likewise, I can't add a camshaft that changes the amount of engine vacuum since the entire fuel map is based off the MAP sensor reading. This is why the minimum lobe separation of 113 degrees is so important on any camshaft I choose. I can pick one that opens the valves a little farther, but not anything that holds them open much longer or has any more overlap than stock... Not without the custom tuning anyway, which is something I don't want to do because I like the idea of being able to order a replacement part and just plug it in without then finding a tuning company to make things work. 

There are some 460 efi forums I've been checking out, and the 2 off the shelf performance camshafts that are known to work without any issues are the Lunati 06169, and the Comp Cams one that Rastus already posted, with the Lunati being slightly hotter and less likely to have lobes wipe off during break in. Also I could have one custom ground, but it would have to be custom ground much like those 2 options. If I had the valve guides cut down and different valve springs, I could probably get a high lift cam so long as I keep it with a minimum 113 degree lobe separation, but I don't plan to go that crazy. 

According to a machine shop in Washington that specializes in making big power with the 460 EFI engine (and offers their own custom ground cam), the OE intake manifold can be made to flow really well with some mild porting. I may also consider exhaust headers. As far as the compression ratio goes, The system doesn't really know or care what pistons are in it. It's already about 8.6 to 1, and If I want to continue being able to tow using 87 octane I'd best not go too much higher. The 1988-early 1993 pistons (like mine) have a small dish but low compression height and had poor quench/prone to pinging. The Late 1993-1997 pistons had a bigger dish, but higher compression height for the same effective ratio, but with better quench and less prone to pinging. So what I may do is get the later style pistons and just have the block decked a little bit to get me closer to 9:1 and call it good.

As far as heads go, the EFI engine has different intake and exhaust port locations and angles than the previous carburetor engines. So all of the nice muscle car era heads and Aluminum aftermarket heads won't work for me unless I get really ambitious about making changes and retrofitting a carb intake to use Ford fuel injection, and since I'm limited by camshaft options it wouldn't make sense anyway. The EFI engines offered 2 cylinder heads. The earlier E7 casting (which I have) are low flowing boat anchors. The F3 casting number heads which came out a few months after my truck was built had bigger valves and flowed much better. So Instead of having my E7 heads redone, I may just opt for a set of F3 reproduction heads from Promaxx depending on budget.

My dealership connections mean nothing here. All of this stuff has been discontinued by Ford decades ago. Only the aftermarket supplies this kind of stuff these days. 



-- Edited by PowerStroker on Thursday 28th of December 2023 10:08:19 PM

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Damn... that really sucks on the metallic paint oil! If it weren't for that you could probably have thrown on some good headers and whacked the cat and probably noticed a 40 HP increase, maybe closer to +60 HP on the highway pulling a load with a higher flowing muffler to boot. Not even kidding! I tried to get my guy to upgrade his exhaust but he want's to stick with stock -- I'd suggest you do the same with speed density. Outside of exhaust, anything else will be noticed, especially a camshaft if it's not the exact profile as factory.

If you're not looking to run premium gas then I wouldn't mess much with a camshaft, unless yours is toast or worn bad. You should really look into the Mass Air conversion kit because it sounds like you're about to get deep and it would be such a shame to be limited in your selection. Yes, it's a truck -- but you might be able to get a cheap mass air kit. Yeah, a few cubes might not make a difference on that size engine, but anything more will just be wasted as the improved airflow wont have the fuel. The hunting or surging idle is a real thing, had a few speed density engines I put (alphabet) - 303 camshafts in and they would always surge and hunt! Every single one from the small B303 and even the F303 that is in my Mustang. My Mustang is a 1988, also speed density -- however I converted it decades ago and it immediatly corrected the problem and now it will idle fine. Had we have had more piston to valve clearance we would have went with the X303 but it was literally paper thin piston to valve clearance as I play-doughed it and cut the impression in half. 

I agree keeping the same centerlobe would minimize the risk of idle problems, but the bottom line is that you will be pulling in more air on every intake stroke with any camshaft that has more lift -- extra air that will not be met with additional fuel (PW) like it would with a mass air setup. I'd really look into any kind of mass air conversion kit -- even if you have to dig in the Ford manuals and wire it out yourself... IIRC it's less than 10 wires on a Mustang! This way you're not limited, and when you fire it up you won't have any idle problems, and you'll get the extra power you're paying for. Not only that, it will run better. The 302's got mass air and did not need to have crank or cam pickups/exciters! They got it all done at the distributor using the factory distributor side mount ignition modules. Keep in mind the 5.0 of 1989-1993 were pre-OBD-II so there might be a way to convert without having to go fully into the OBD-II standard... Late OBD-I w/ mass air was the cats ass for modding and performance. The body style changed in 1994 for the Mustang but they still run the 5.0 engines up until 1996 when they went with the Modular 4.6L Engines in both SOHC and DOHC versions -- naturally these later 1996 Modular engines had the cam sensors/exciters as part of it's digital 4-coil pack ignitions. But none of that's important to you, I am just mentioning it because that's when it got hard to make good power with them.

I don't know what you use the truck for, but it sounds pretty clean and nice... A good sounding free flowing exhaust system and a nice cam lope would complement it and make it much more fun to drive. It doesn't have to lope like a dog shitting marbles, but you'd be shocked how easy it is to get used to that sound! LOL

Whats a little extra for premium when you got money in the engine? Using cheap 87 could have been the cause for why you're getting metallic oil on the oil changes... pre-ignition is BRUTAL on bearings, pistons and rings! But you know this! 

Sounds like you're about to spend a nice chunck of change any way you slice it! I'd look into that mass-air conversion! I'm really curious what is coming appart in the engine too! Let us know what you find!

 



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Wow...

Some good posts fellas !

Too bad about all these EFI complexities...I'd consider running 3 x budgets PowerStroker...

1. Rebuild back to std specs.

2. Rebuild with major head-work, so as to keep EFI happy, & yet make extra HP in std rev-ranges.

3. Rebuild with older carb-heads post 1973, run whatever cam & extractors you like, & fit low-rise-tunnel-ram with say a Holly 1,000 CFM 4-barrel EFI self-tuning package, & sell-off the OEM EFI.

You may-well find that option 3 will get you a massive HP gain per dollar-spent ratio, whilst maintaining small budget, fuel economy, & drive-ability.

I doubt you'll be hassled by the law, & your emissions may even improve overall, even if an idle sniffer-test raises a few eye-brows...


Here in Oz, they did the same thing when they offered EFI on our home-grown 5.0ltr GM V-8...Heads were highly modified from prior engines with a higher intake port mount, & the valves changed from a bow-tie arrangement with 2 x centre paired exhaust, into sequential intake, exhaust format...There were "chip" replacements for the computer, but initial "packages" were limited for the street into 3 x options, similar in spec to the 1st x 3 Heetseeker camshaft power-ranges.

Anyhow, the point is that the earlier camshafts, headers / extractors, & other performance options were less than 1/2 the asking price for the new stuff that fitted the EFI system...And the EFI heads do make more power, but only once your engine was revving past 7,000-rpm. Up to that RPM range, the earlier ported / modified bow-tie heads made considerably more torque & power, which is what you need for the street. Perhaps a similar scenario resides with the 460, & I'd be looking at all options, with option 3 quite keenly.

Just ask yourself if spending say 2-k to get yourself back to OEM spec & 275-HP is what you want, or say spending 2.5-K, & being able to select your own HP number ?

Do the budgets for all 3 x scenarios as one will offer the best bang-for-buck.

Crane apparently make roller-rockers that don't need guide-plates, they simply use the valve as the guide, with washers at either end of the roller-tip to secure alignment.

And should you go the std OEM route, you can retard the cam-timing up-to say 4-degrees to improve top-end flow without losing any low-down efficiency.

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Well option 3 is off the table because my E4OD transmission is also controlled by the PCM. So If I went aftermarket injection OR a carburetor, I'd still have to get a standalone trans controller. The Ford dealer technician in me likes to be able to pull up factory service manuals and schematics and have them actually apply to the vehicle I'm working on if you know what I mean. I'd be in a diagnostic no man's land if I modified things that much and had to diagnose problems later.

Ugh, the garage will be warm in about 15 minutes, my weekend is about to get interesting...

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LOL !

Here's a link to an Aussie Ford backed aftermarket performance specialist known as Tickford. These people had their own modifications including camshafts & other bits & pieces that legally fitted up to our 6's & Windsor 302-V-8's. They have your BIG trucks advertised here also, so maybe you can contact them via e-mail, & get the low-down of what they can possibly offer you, or maybe direct you to the right people Stateside.

www.tickfordperformance.com.au/

On the basis that your truck has a map-sensor, it's only a matter of tricking it into thinking you're still pulling regular vacuum at idle. & this is ultimately a voltage level that's sent to the PC...The reason that some engines "hunt" at idle, is that with the lower-vacuum registered, more fuel is injected into the motor since the computer thinks that the throttle has been opened, & then the O2 & other sensors correct this decision, & round & round we go hunting.

There will be a way where you can keep the OEM EFI equipment, run the later EFI heads as you suggested, & run some kind of enhanced camshaft, though these will be few, & maybe your own grind will be selected.

*All else left std, big valves & porting will not affect idle quality or cause your computer to make hassles. Your throttle position & vacuum at idle remain the same. It's when you're at WOT, the engine will breathe deeper, & deliver more ponnies.



-- Edited by Rastus on Friday 29th of December 2023 07:04:01 PM

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Yo,

These people in Germany may be who you need to speak with PowerStroker, if interested...It seems that they have their own programmable computer that plugs into the diagnosis-socket of your truck, & stays there during operation. It appears to intercept all the sensors input before getting to the OEM computer, therefore leaving everything OEM standard, whilst modifying the input-data to suit your performance needs.

www.gantuning.com/chiptuning/ford/

Good luck ! At least these people will be able to do something or guide you to someone who will, but your truck may be too old for them to have anything on the shelf. I'm sure there must be someone State-side that's done this already, & has the same component sitting-on-a-shelf somewhere. Searches here in Oz have many hits around the world, I'm sure that you'll find someone local.

If you can get a hold of one-of-these babies ( I'll call it a "pre-computer-interface-module" lol ), the whole performance world of options will open-up for you, & that means BIG power numbers with little out-lay, whilst retaining fuel efficiency & legalities.

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Well, it's looking like the thrust bearing is the cause of most of the metal, but there is also a spot on the #1 main bearing that is down to copper too. Bores still show crosshatch but a few of them are worn .004 so I'm going to go .020 oversize on the bores. I'm also going to have them align hone the main journals and exchange the crankshaft with a reconditioned one just to make sure things are straight and true. Then I'll have them balance the entire rotating assembly. Surprisingly the cam still has all of its lobes, and the lifters are still flat on the bottom with some moderate spalling on a few. I've already started ordering parts, but the shopping list to do this right is going to be huge. Hell, the parts price alone is going to be more than the cost of a questionable remanufactured engine, but at least I'll know what went in to this and feel better about it since I plan to keep the truck.

Today I got the engine stripped down to the bare block. Once the crank, pistons, rods, and bearings show up I can bring it to a machine shop. Once it comes back I can play "cake decorator" and just assemble the thing after they do the difficult stuff. I haven't made a decision on the camshaft yet, but the machine shop shouldn't need that anyway so I have time to think about it. One thing for sure though is I want to get Johnson "cam saver" lifters which have a flat machined in them to dramatically increase lubrication of the cam lobes.

I will say removal of the engine turned into a much bigger ordeal than it should have been... Things were going great, amazingly fast actually. And then when I went to actually hoist it out I just couldn't clear the hood of the vehicle with my engine hoist. So as the 700 lb engine is dangling there in the air, I had to decide whether to remove the hood (by myself), or remove the core support. Well, I should have picked hood because I ended up removing more bolts to get the core support out of the way than I needed to remove the engine itself. Live and learn I guess.



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Good work PowerStroker !

Not for me to say where to spend your money, just to throw ideas in the air...( But do you really want to invest in new, crank, rods & pistons when they're designed for 2-3 life-cycles via machining ) ?...

The camshaft grinders also grind the lobes of flat-tappet-cams so there's actually a subtle difference in height across the lobe top, & match them with lifters with slight mushroom on the bottoms, so that the lifter spins when in motion when the pre-load is set right, & full-faces of the lobe & lifter get the chance to wear evenly with long life. Roller rockers ensure ( among other things ) that no binding exists at the mount-point, so the cam, lifter, push-rod, rocker & valve never lose contact with each other.

Should there be wear on the base-circle of the cam, be warned that this increases lift.

Think of camshafts in these engines as disposable wear items like brake-pads, that actually last a lot longer, & offer the opportunity to try out another when worn out lol. That said, with the low duration & lift numbers with what you're dealing with, & quality brand cam with correct lifters will last a long time, & you can almost double that with the use of roller rockers, & Slick-50...

It's possible that you or the previous owner parked the beast up on a hill as a regular parking-spot, & on start-up, the thrust bearing did its job until some oil got there. This is why I whole heartedly recommend the use of the PTFE long-life oil additives, since it hangs around on all your internal parts on cold start-ups until the oil gets there...

Don't forget about your heads...Even running std cam but with big valves, K-liners / ( new valve guide inserts ) & a port-job will keep your vacuum where it is, but offer massive improvements in HP delivery when at WOT...You don't have to worry about air-speed to carry the fuel through a manifold as it's sprayed straight into the cylinder, so open those ports up as much as you can...

Some specialist Machine Shops have CNC machinery with programs available to make your heads breathe as best as possible. Find one my friend.

All the best & Happy New Year !

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PowerStroker wrote:

Well, it's looking like the thrust bearing is the cause of most of the metal, but there is also a spot on the #1 main bearing that is down to copper too. Bores still show crosshatch but a few of them are worn .004 so I'm going to go .020 oversize on the bores. I'm also going to have them align hone the main journals and exchange the crankshaft with a reconditioned one just to make sure things are straight and true. Then I'll have them balance the entire rotating assembly. Surprisingly the cam still has all of its lobes, and the lifters are still flat on the bottom with some moderate spalling on a few. I've already started ordering parts, but the shopping list to do this right is going to be huge. Hell, the parts price alone is going to be more than the cost of a questionable remanufactured engine, but at least I'll know what went in to this and feel better about it since I plan to keep the truck.

Today I got the engine stripped down to the bare block. Once the crank, pistons, rods, and bearings show up I can bring it to a machine shop. Once it comes back I can play "cake decorator" and just assemble the thing after they do the difficult stuff. I haven't made a decision on the camshaft yet, but the machine shop shouldn't need that anyway so I have time to think about it. One thing for sure though is I want to get Johnson "cam saver" lifters which have a flat machined in them to dramatically increase lubrication of the cam lobes.

I will say removal of the engine turned into a much bigger ordeal than it should have been... Things were going great, amazingly fast actually. And then when I went to actually hoist it out I just couldn't clear the hood of the vehicle with my engine hoist. So as the 700 lb engine is dangling there in the air, I had to decide whether to remove the hood (by myself), or remove the core support. Well, I should have picked hood because I ended up removing more bolts to get the core support out of the way than I needed to remove the engine itself. Live and learn I guess.


 

Thrust bearing you say, eh? So in other words, the main bearing in the middle? The #1 Main Bearing being copper sounds more like the culprit but a few pictures would be worth a few thousand words. Shocked the bearings let go at 140,000 miles and I can only assume that it was the detonation from all them years of cheap 87 octane gasoline that contributed to this -- IF you don't end up finding another cause later down the road... odd that it didn't have any knocking but perhaps you caught it just in time.

Having it bored .020 thou sounds like a conservative amount, as most of the times they go .030 which is gernerally the standard overbore for most piston manufactures, but if they are selling .020 over pistons and the cylinders are still super clean with little ridge or scrapes then by all means, I'd leave the extra meat on there too, if you can get away with it. The align hone is a good idea also, as such as the balancing of the crank, rods, pistons and rings -- it's also a pretty penny to have that done because it takes a lot of time if someone does it right. Shocked you're not sticking with your original crank! Who knows what the other one came out of, but I'd think for the purposes of balancing they would want to use your original too. In fact, I would mark the castings to ensure you get the same ones back before you drop them off. It's just prudent business. I'd stick with my original crank and have it turned if possible... if not, well it's getting balanced so I suppose it won't matter much. Usually I have found that when you add Forged Pistons and beefy rods they have to actually add mallory to the crank to make the journals heavier -- they do this by drilling a hole and filling it with the mallory -- then they sort of braze/weld it... You'll be able to tell if they added mallory.

I feel you on the parts list... and yes, if you use good OE Ford gaskets and quality aftermarket parts it will be much more than some boat anchor reman that in most cases had all it's holes opened up, sleved, and the cheapest parts and gaskets used... this is the case for most "economy" remans... you want the good stuff and that price just goes up. You're also not factoring in your labor, that too is a HUGE chunk of change right there! That is a MASSIVE savings! Sucks you didn't have any help lifting the hood off, but at least you don't have to pull the cab on that year!  

I have not used or heard anything on the Johnson "cam saver" lifters. I'm not sure if the lingo suggest you can use your old camshaft aka "cam saver" or if there is another explanation -- however if you're running flat tappet lifters then I'd for sure buy a new camshaft and lifters as 140,000 miles is a lot for that style. Trying to get my head around this "flat" that would be machined in the lifter... I always thought flat tappet hydro lifters spun in their bores. I've only seen roller lifters locked in their bores. 

I got big blue up in the air with all the tires off it... getting ready to build that engine but I have to save the lower end. Seems like you're going all in -- and sounds like it will be a nice fresh rebuild when all is said and done! If you don't mind me asking, what do you figure your outlay will be? In a best case senario of course, and not including your labor.  



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Here's a link to the lifters I'm going to use: https://crower.com/lifters/flat-tappet/hydraulic-lifters-cam-saver-johnson-ford-221-302-351-370-400-429-460.html

If you look at the picture, there is a milled flat running from the oil land almost all the way down to the bottom but not quite. The lifter still rotates in the bore, but this flat area fills with pressurized oil and gives a squirt to the cam lobe when the lifter moves up and down. They say it increases oil to the cam lobes by 20-30% while only dropping system oil pressure a few psi. To me it seems like it's worth trying. As far as outlay goes, it's easily going over $4k.



-- Edited by PowerStroker on Monday 1st of January 2024 11:13:51 PM

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Okay, I see what you're talking about! Pretty trick! Might as well give it a shot, they arent cheap but they look really well built. Thanks for the link, I was thinking they milled a flat where the cam lobe met the lifter... lol and I was just like confuse this makes much more sense!



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I was only asking about best case senario outlay because I was going to do a little math to figure out cost savings between regular and premium for 140,000 vs. the added cost of the premium when next to the cost of repairs.

140,000 miles isn't bad for such a beast of an engine, and you prolly could have run that puppy for quite a few more miles. Did you open up the oil filter to see how much was in there? Or is it just a moot point that you don't really want to waste time on.



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I didn't cut the filter open but I dumped it out and watched the oil when it drained out of the pan. I wasn't going to get another summer out of it so time to bite the bullet.

Say, what are your thoughts on rear main seal material? Do you like regular rubber or viton?

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I usually like to stick to whatever the factory version is for rear main seals... I think most modern ones are viton already. For you application I'd preffer a Ford Motorcraft if available. Followed by Fel-Pro and National, which on some Fel-Pro kits are often times re-boxed National seals. I also think National is an OE supplier to a lot of the big boys -- Ford included.

If you get a seal that is too hard it can cut a groove in your crank. You may also have a groove in your crank after 140,000 miles and I always hate when they use them sleeves! They just seem like a cheap bandaid fix that will fail in short order. Hard to find people who will weld/grind the grooves anymore. Sometimes people will try and sink the seal where the new lip is away from the old groove. This also makes me worry, but I've seen it done and I have even seen seals that are made thicker/thinner in thickness to change where that lip will sit.

I can still remember doing wax-rope two piece seals back in the 1980's... back then you would have to drop the rear-most bearing cap to change them... they had a tool for removing and installing them... primitive times with lots of cork to leak everywhere else on the engine! LOL



-- Edited by SELLC on Tuesday 2nd of January 2024 12:27:40 AM

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Yo,

I'm not so sure that those lifters are so great, as they will squirt oil everywhere else except the cam-lobes lol...( Alright, maybe a % of the time some oil will land on the cam, since the valley above is sealed, & will act as a roof ). Perhaps these are "snake-oil" lifters ?...And if your lifter bores have a little wear, you wont need the Johnson...Many studies reveal that its the sticking / binding that occurs with std OEM rocker-arm assemblies that's the main cause of camshaft lobe wear, since at some point in the rev-range the sticking assembly initiates lifter hammer on the cam lobe, not lack of oil. Also, bent push-rods can trick the lifter into pumping-up since it sees a shorter push-rod working. The rod can then possibly rub / stick to the guide-hole in the head, & you can see what catastrophe approaches.

You are still better to match cam & lifters as a set / package from the manufacturer imo. Though you're essentially looking at an improved stock-replacement cam, there are lifter leak-down rates plus oil viscosity factors here also to consider.

Slick-50 or any PTFE long-life oil additive will keep your investment safe & offer long life. Super cheap investment, & also offers cooler running & increased power through friction losses for years. I use it, & highly recommend its use.

And Stellar, some engines have the thrust-bearing mounted at the No.5 main bearing cap, trans-side. Our little home-grown GM V-8'd did.

I'm surprised at how the costs here are calculating up...Seems too much, though I don't live State-side.

The heads I expected to cost around $600:00 each, for porting, new large valves & seats & at least 3 x angle valve-job.

The cam & lifter-set sux because you have to buy an EFI one, which is probably double or more the asking price of the earlier carbed engines, with no HP gain.

Roller rockers you should be able to get for around $400:00 I would have thought. Std ratio, non-adjustable for hydraulic cams with roller-tip.

And rings & bearings plus full gasket set are all of $250:00, though you're grabbing new pistons, which is a massive variable I suppose.

Good luck, & spend wisely.



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Rastus wrote:


And Stellar, some engines have the thrust-bearing mounted at the No.5 main bearing cap, trans-side. Our little home-grown GM V-8'd did.


 

Yes this is true, however it's still a main bearing... just the "rear" one and not the middle.

I think IIRC Fords does it in the center -- but it's been awhile. Maybe that was Mercedes? 

PowerStroker could have checked end-play with a dial indicator -- and may very well have. That would dictate how much wear/walk the crankshaft was doing. There is a range for desired end-play. 

The copper showing on the bearing is probably where most of the glitter is coming from. When checking for knocks or engine bearing condition copper is always a sign the bearing is worn out.



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SELLC wrote:
Rastus wrote:


And Stellar, some engines have the thrust-bearing mounted at the No.5 main bearing cap, trans-side. Our little home-grown GM V-8'd did.


 

Yes this is true, however it's still a main bearing... just the "rear" one and not the middle.

I think IIRC Fords does it in the center -- but it's been awhile. Maybe that was Mercedes? 

PowerStroker could have checked end-play with a dial indicator -- and may very well have. That would dictate how much wear/walk the crankshaft was doing. There is a range for desired end-play. 

The copper showing on the bearing is probably where most of the glitter is coming from. When checking for knocks or engine bearing condition copper is always a sign the bearing is worn out.


 

 

Yo,

Maybe a set of full-groove main-bearings will stop this happening in the future, though it may seem a little over-kill, & yet may be the cure too.



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Rastus wrote:


I'm surprised at how the costs here are calculating up...Seems too much, though I don't live State-side.

The heads I expected to cost around $600:00 each, for porting, new large valves & seats & at least 3 x angle valve-job.

The cam & lifter-set sux because you have to buy an EFI one, which is probably double or more the asking price of the earlier carbed engines, with no HP gain.

Roller rockers you should be able to get for around $400:00 I would have thought. Std ratio, non-adjustable for hydraulic cams with roller-tip.

And rings & bearings plus full gasket set are all of $250:00, though you're grabbing new pistons, which is a massive variable I suppose.

Good luck, & spend wisely.


 

If I had to guess, with machine work and everything from parts, fluids and other things -- depending on what all he's doing... I'd say it could be around $7,000 with him eating the the labor - by the time all is said and done.

And that assumes no labor cost at all... but that is just a spitball estimate, and may include things that PowerStroker might not plan on upgrading or installing.

I don't see him getting out of this any less than $4-5k and that is with him getting a good deal on all the parts and engine work at the machine shop. 

Balancing alone is usually upwards of $1,000+

Seems like PowerStroker doesn't want to share his cost, which is fine... it's nobodys business what a man, or women -- spends on his/her car/truck. LOL

But -- assuming the truck gets, say... 10MPG which might be generous with highway/street being sort of combined, that is 16,000 gallons of gas... what is hard will be factoring in fuel prices since they were pretty low back with the truck was new, and sky high for the last little while... Usually I see premium 89 or higher being about .50 cents more per gallon, but that can also be sometimes $1.00 more per gallon if you're buying 92-93-94 octane depending on what is offered where he is at. In California it's almost the same price to buy premium as it is regular... so we will go $2.00 for regular and $2.50 for premium just to get a general ballpark.

16,000 X $2.00 = $32,000 in fuel costs over the life of the vehicle with the cheaper 87 octane

16,000 X $2.50 = $40,000 in fuel cost over the life of the vehicle with the more expensive "premium"

So that is $8,000 that PowerStroker would have saved buying 87 octane vs Premium in the lifetime of the truck if he had owned it since new. 

Pretty close to what I was guessing for his cost to do this full on re-build in just parts and services... and that isn't taking into consideration any of his labor cost, which would probably be $7,000-$10,000 for an R&I + Overhaul at dealership rates.

So for PowerStroker doing his own work, with the intention of keeping the truck forever the rebuild cost are covered by his savings by using cheap 87 octane gas! But for any regular person not eating the labor cost, it's clear to see the Premium is worth it.

There are a LOT of variables in my math in terms of true gas costs, actual truck miles per gallon, and inflation in both parts and labor costs -- but this sort of ball-parks it for us. 



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I messed up and used 160,000 rather than the trucks actual 140,000 miles... 

140,000 miles = 14,000 gallons X $2.00 a gallon is $28,000 in lifetime fuel cost with 87

140,000 miles = 14,000 gallons X 2.50 a gallon is $35,000 in lifetime fuel cost with Premium

So actually it's right on the mark of $7,000 which is what I guessed the cost for everything when it's all said and done.

Give or take, of course... 



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Rastus wrote:

Yo,

Maybe a set of full-groove main-bearings will stop this happening in the future, though it may seem a little over-kill, & yet may be the cure too.


 

 

The con-rod bearings are actually chamfered on the high end race bearings... but I have seen them both ways...

High end bearings like what you're thinking of often have to be used with very hard performance 4340 crankshafts or the harder race bearings will chew up the softer factory cranks. 

 



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Stellar said...

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qt."High end bearings like what you're thinking of often have to be used with very hard performance 4340 crankshafts or the harder race bearings will chew up the softer factory cranks".
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


***I'd argue not if there's plenty of oil getting in there...We have to remember that everything that rotates inside any motor "floats" on a thin film of oil-under-pressure...Oil pressure is critical, & just because the light on-the-dash goes out on start-up, doesn't mean the rest-of-the-engine is getting its fair share...Most oil-pressure-switches are mounted close to or on the filter housing, & the rest of the motor is still waiting for its share of the life-blood.

This is why I think that the truck has through its life sat for a while, & over the time-span sitting, the oil made it all the way back into the sump via gravity, or evaporated in the warmer months. Add in the possibility of it being rested-up on an incline or down-hill, & the thrust bearing did it's job without oil.

Once again, the PTFE long-life oil additives do help in this matter from my experience. I do notice considerable improvements every-where, but I also throw it in the transmission, diff, power-steering & dregs go into the fuel tank. For my $00:02, the Slick-50 shyte works quite well, though I can't offer proof.

20-years ago ( give or take ), I did an inspection like PowerStroker on my little GM 308 V-8, since it was going through some oil, but wasn't smokey at all, & had no leaks. Upon inspection, I broke a couple of head-bolts that simply couldn't be removed by myself, & so the machine-shop got the job. And while I was there, I asked for new cam bearings to be fitted, & a light hone-job, to bed in new rings.

Anyhow, upon pick-up, the machinist asked whether I had used any additives in the motor, since something was clogging-up the grinding stone when honing. I said I had placed Slick-50 in there around 5-years earlier...So it does hang-around...And my oil-problem was intake manifold related where the exhaust porting for the carb-cold-heat-up junction was blown, & sucking oil mist straight-out with the exhaust.



-- Edited by Rastus on Tuesday 2nd of January 2024 03:50:01 AM

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I'm sure you would argue a lot of things, but you don't use soft factory bearings on a 4340 crank... and likewise you don't use expensive chamfered rod, and performance narrowed main bearings on regular iron crankshaft. This thin layer of oil that the crank "floats on" is not instantaneous. If the crank was always floating on a thin layer of oil the bearing would never wear out... but that's just not the case! I'd also argue that using Slick 50 is not a wise suggestion unless you don't care about the engine, for exactly the reason your machinist mentioned -- it sticks to everything. 

This guy is also a big Slick-50 advocate -

used_car_salesman.jpg

It's most likely that the #1 rod bearing is worn because it's the furthest away from the pump -- and any thrust bearing damage could be the result of pre-ignition (cheap gas), or in some cases from people pounding on the balancer to re-install. They make a tool to remove and install the balancer, but some people only use the tool to remove it. Tapping that balancer with a hammer, even a little bit to get the crank bolt started is very risky and all takes a toll on the thrust bearing. PowerStroker mentioned that he had the timing cover off somewhat recently prior to the metallic paint. So we have two possible theories here... and yet a third could be the guy who owned the truck before PowerStroker didn't keep up on his oil changes, or used them cheap $19.99 oil change coupons and got poor quality oil. The PO could have towed a lot of weight, or drove it like he stole it. Who knows!

 

 



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I should also mention that it looks like you could probably get an economy re-man engine for about $4,000 with tax, delivery and core charge for the 1993-1997 460 F250.  PowerStroker could keep his old core in that price too... but that is just your basic "run-of-the-mill" engine that probably uses low cost gaskets and parts... but even then I can't get any details about what all is "new" inside the engine, nor does anyone mention what brand parts and gaskets are used.

 



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I honestly don't know what the total cost will be until this is over, and it will be a while because I need parts to show up before I'll be ready to take it to a machine shop. I have the damper install tool, but did notice some prior hammer marks on it. Rex may be on to something.

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Yo,

Bearings are disposable items like brake-pads. There are many types to choose from, for whatever application considered. The reason they are soft-metal is that like a thermostat housing, they're a sacrificial item. They are made from different metal-types & coatings to prevent seizure when no oil is present. I only suggested full-groove-items for the means of extending the engines life. If the thrust bearing has worn, more oil will help.

PowerStriker just mentioned witness marks on the damper, so maybe too much hammering or the use of a n impact-gun messed the bearing up ?

The Slick-50 / PTFE additives claim to chemically bond to all internal surfaces, & last for up to 50,000 miles. This means there is a film of super-slippery PTFE on all bearing surfaces that helps preserve the integrity of the bearings until oil gets there, a few seconds after the light goes out on the dashboard. Your engine will last longer as it always has a film of PTFE to spin-on until oil arrives.

The reason that I keep insisting / hinting at new cam-bearings, is that if they're worn, how much oil-pressure are we losing ??? We don't know, so we replace with new ones so that lifers fill up quicker, & camshaft plus over-head gear gets the oil ASAP, not to mention all the bearings inside.

And fitting a new camshaft will be tricky, since the valley is sealed, & no access with a coat-hanger is available to carry / walk the new cam through all the bearings, meaning damage to the new bearings. I'd almost consider letting the machine-shop fit it, as they do it all the time. Or if PowerStroker can rotate the engine so it's sitting upright, with the crank nose in the air, he "could" try dropping it in gently...And sometimes a block doesn't come out 100%, & the cam won't fit-in the block with new cam-bearings fitted...The machine shop will then line-bore the cam tunnel true, with the new bearings fitted, so the cam fits. Lots of hurdles to consider "if'' they appear. And shyte happens lol !




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