460 EFI Rebuild - Auto-Trend Repairs and Service Information Forums

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

460 EFI Rebuild

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

Yes indeed, I'm looking forward to some pictures, but more importantly, the smile on your face PowerStroker.

You're rebuilding Fords most exalted engine ever made imo, & that's worth getting excited about...Maybe the only gripe for myself is that it will live in a small truck, & not a luxury 2-door coupe of sorts, but it will still be a super-easy-going cruiser.

Fingers crossed that extractors & a dual exhaust are manageable with your budget, as at least you get to enjoy some big-V-8 burble, plus economy & power will be enhanced.

Hills & load / off-load conditions will help break-in, if a 460 can feel any load that is LOL ! 10-heat cycles ( start-ups from cold ) is a good run-in time, so you can change-out the oil ASAP.

I'm sure she'll roar when finished :) !

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I kinda think the 427 SOHC was the most exalted Ford engine ever made. When Ford wanted to bring it to Nascar to beat up on the 426 Hemi's and Nascar said something to the effect of "the fuck you are, things are already too ridiculous" That's the sign of quality.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

The 427 SOHC was an excellent engine, but from what I've read, reliability proved a problem with the chain, & its length...I'm pretty-sure that the next re-design that followed was the 427-Boss design...

Push-rod-less engines have the advantage of round-intake-ports, that flow around 10% better than oval or rectangle designs. The Boss engines used cantered / offset OHV design, similar to a Hemi, that allowed near-round intake ports.

The 460 was the result of this effort. Nice piece of reliable V-8 testing carried out. & 30-years of production is amazing, when the others mentioned were lucky to see a couple of years manufacture.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

Here's something to help eat your pop-corn with from Nick's garage, whilst we patiently await PowerStroker to post-up some picks & stuff. I haven't watched it yet myself ( I'm about to after I finish posting this up lol ). And though not a Ford V-8 as such, it is about a 427-cube GM V-8, & that's gotta-be worth watching :) ! And it will give us some idea of what PowerStroker will be cruising around in, even if this is "only" a 7.0ltr motor lol !

-- Edited by Rastus on Wednesday 22nd of May 2024 05:58:33 AM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Teardown and inspection pics:

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Wednesday 22nd of May 2024 06:00:07 PM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Off to the machine shop.

Accumulating parts.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Sunday 26th of May 2024 07:00:45 AM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

2 Machine shops involved in this. First, I brought the crankshaft to Crankshaft Supply in Minneapolis to be straightened, ground and polished. All journals are now .010 undersize.

Then once I got the crankshaft back, I brought the block, crankshaft, rods, as well as a new harmonic damper and new flexplate to Dana's AMS in Shakopee MN.

Dana's AMS did the following:

-Clean and inspect block
-Bore and finish hone cylinders .020 oversize
-Deck the block
-Line hone the mains
-Hone lifter bores
-Replace rod bolts and resize big end of rods
-Press new pistons on to rods
-Balance rotating assembly (which is why I brought them the new harmonic and flex plate - it's an externally balanced engine)

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Finally back from the machine shop!

Verifying the machine shops work before reassembly. Tedious measuring of everything.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Don't want to leave ANY machining chips in the block.

Setting ring gaps

Cam bearings going in

New main bearings torqued in for clearance measuring

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

And then double checking clearances with plastigauge

Checking crank thrust... Originally I had 0 so I had to sand the new thrust bearing with 1000 grit on one side to get it to .006. Apparently this is common when the main caps have been cut and then line honed.

And double checking rod clearances with plastigauge too

Here are the new Speed Pro pistons on the reconditioned / resized rods with new ARP rod bolts.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Rotating assembly is in and torqued with new viton rear main seal which required trimming to achieve .010 seal crush.

New cam and billet double roller timing set.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Finding true top dead center and degreeing in the new camshaft.

And this is why you degree the camshaft... Spec calls for 110 degrees on intake lobe center, I needed to use the 2 degree advance keyway to achieve it.

Brand new "F3" cylinder heads from Promaxx. These have slightly bigger valves and flow better than the "E7" heads I had.

Stock stamped vs billet roller rockers

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

ARP head studs, overkill for this project but I wanted them.

Crower "cam saver" lifters, note the machined flat from the oil land to the bottom to increase oil to the cam lobes.

Cyl #1 valve springs replaced with checking springs to measure piston to valve clearance, measure for proper pushrod length, and a red sharpie on the valve stems to check roller rocker contact pattern.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Adjusting lifter preload

Checking lifter preload with wire gauge between lifter plunger and retainer

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Stock length pushrod vs the length needed for the roller rockers

I've never seen a stock one fail, but ARP makes a hardened oil pump shaft so I bought one.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

New aftermarket replacement oil pan, and new OE engine mounts.

Using a drill to prime the oil pump and prefill all passages so it will have instant oil pressure when it starts up.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I mildly ported the intake runners and sent the injectors out to be cleaned and flow tested.

Valve cover spacers from Medice Mfg, needed with roller rockers.

Thorley Headers

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

So far so good, I've driven it to work for the last couple days and all seems well.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Most excellent work PowerStroker!

I especially love how you made improvements to the exhaust (headers), rocker arms (roller) and I love the scorpion brand too but they are $$, the quality balancer upgrade, the head studs, and especially the Sealed Power pistons!

Looks like you kept everything just within the tolerances of the speed density pre-programed engine management system! But I did notice you put 2 degrees of advance timing into it -- which, without having seen the specs on the camshaft vs stock -- could be causing some issues without further programing. May I ask why you felt the need to put in two degrees of advance timing? One time I put in two degrees of timing on a Mustang with a B303 camshaft only to find out it ran much better at the base of zero (but because he too was using a speed density system that was not programed for the modifications). Just something to think about, if you're happy with things as is -- that is all that matters.

Excellent photo documentation also! You really spent the time and money to spec everything out, right down to the bearing crush test and work to degree the camshaft. Is that where you derived at the 2 degree advance in timing? Because I don't know what it is, but it just seems like 2 degrees advanced added in with an indexed crank sprocket has a much bigger effect than say, 2 degrees added in by advancing the distributor a smidge... I don't know why, but it's just what I have noticed. I didn't see any mention of it, but if you havent had the computer re-programed with all your new power adders and bigger cubic inch size (due to oversided pistons) then you'll only be cheating yourself as it's clear you have sunk a nice little chunk of change into this build! Not only that, you did it in real good time too!

I know people like to keep their build cost under their hat, for obvious reasons... but let me ask you this -- if you had to do this exact same job, using the exact same parts for a customer, what would you have charged them? Just for shits and giggles!

GREAT JOB! Looks awesome, I bet it sounds awesome now with them headers too!

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Rastus wrote:

Push-rod-less engines have the advantage of round-intake-ports, that flow around 10% better than oval or rectangle designs. The Boss engines used cantered / offset OHV design, similar to a Hemi, that allowed near-round intake ports.

This theory of yours about round-intake-ports flowing 10% better than other designs is not excatly gospel anymore Rastus... all of the newer LS engines (even the bigger ones above 400 ci's) are using a cathedral style intake port now days -- and they are pushing upwards of 800+HP in their forced induction varients. Look it up. They went back to round for the exhaust and square for the intake on the GEN-V LT engines however... Don't get me wrong, I like the round ports too! They are great for top end flow!

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Thank you!

I ordered a slightly hotter camshaft in January, and it still hasn't shown up. Apparently, and you've probably experienced this too, but aftermarket cam grinders are having a tough time getting cores to grind and there is a HUGE backlog of orders. I eventually gave up and ordered a stock replacement cam from Melling and had it within a couple days. I'm actually not too disappointed about it though, being speed density I knew the stock replacement wouldn't have any drivability issues at idle.

I used the 2 degree advance keyway because that's what was needed to make the cam degree in properly at 110 degrees on intake lobe center which is spec for this engine. Sometimes when a camshaft is ground, all of the lobes can be off slightly relative to the timing index peg due to manufacturing tolerances at the camshaft supplier, or variances in the timing gears, or even from simply having some slack in the timing chain. I tried timing straight up initially but the degree wheel showed it slightly retarded. Then I retimed it with the 2 degree advance keyway and ended up right in spec.

As far as what this cost, I think it's just under $7000 with free labor on my part. As for what I would charge a customer, I wouldn't do this for a customer because at the dealer we wouldn't do anything where the downtime is measured in months if at all possible. We would have sold the customer a reman long block and charged whatever labor Alldata says to install it.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

Top-notch build PowerStroker, & I didn't realize how much back-breaking work was involved until I saw the motor back in the truck...Not much room, & lots of ancillaries to make right that take time.

Your old bearings were fairly worn, though your valves & pistons ( at least in the photos ) looked in really good running-order, with no excess oil-burning apparent. The valve-heads looked amazing in colour, & all burning evenly.

The Tri-Y's not only look trick, but will work wonders in helping purge old gasses whilst relieving back-pressure on adjacent cylinders. With your new heads & big valves, I'm sure there will be a lot more pull available, & the HP number grow quite a few numbers for sure, even if the rev-ceiling remains std.

I wasn't going to talk at all about dollars spent, but I'd guess you've built a far better motor than any crate option at about 1/2 the price. That's a big win.

Well done, & enjoy !

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Thank you gentlemen, Another successful drive to work in it this morning.

The old pistons looked ok, but some of the cylinders had .004 taper so I had to go to the next oversize of .020 and get new pistons. Since I had to do that anyway, I got the newer style (93-97) with a deeper dish but taller compression height with the same effective compression ratio of 8.8:1 but with better quench to reduce the chance of pinging.
Truck runs really well, and now I can move on to other projects like lawn mower maintenance and such - what a relief. Plus I'll get my pool table back!

I did replace a lot of other things too like hoses, sensors, egr, etc. This project could have been done a lot cheaper, but I wanted to build something I wouldn't have to take apart for a long long time.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

No-doubt many of us are anxious to learn how PowerStroker's truck is enjoying the break-in time, & follow-up report from him, with the news of hopefully a much more noticeable get-up-&-go attitude from the refreshed & bullet-proofed motor. Admittedly, at a whopping 7.5-ltrs, it would be difficult to gauge, especially since the new parts to need mating & settling-in...Perhaps after this week-ends racing event, the truck & PowerStroker will come-to-terms with one-another, & some complimentary WOT moments will happen over a dedicated tank-full of gas for break-in & fun only ???...

Until that time & report arrives, here's another link to Nick's Garage, where he reunites himself with his old "keeper" project from a couple of years ago, where due to lack-of-space & an original body, he sold-off his near 500-Hp std 426 V-8 Chrysler engine & gearbox. That customer has returned to let Nick take the finished beast for a drive around the block, & it sounds & goes quite well imo, considering he's taking-it-easy...

Enjoy, it's only a short video !

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

It's running great. I've been driving it to work pretty much every day to put some miles on it. It's been about 1000 miles since the rebuild.

I did realize the front fuel pump was getting weak, so I replaced it and replaced the steel fuel tank with a plastic one while I was at it. The steel tank was still in pretty decent shape, but I prefer plastic fuel tanks and not having to worry about them ever rusting. Eventually the rear fuel pump will fail, and I'll get a plastic tank for it too when it does.

It has a little bit more power than it used to, but nothing that will blow your doors off. I did have to stay within the limits of what the speed-density fuel injection could tolerate, which isn't much change from stock. The exhaust headers, better flowing heads, and adjustable fuel pressure regulator do help. Right now the ignition timing is set to 10 degrees btdc, which is spec. I'll probably bump that to 11 or 12 after break in and get a little more power out of it. She seems pretty healthy as is though.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

Good work PowerStroker, & fingers crossed the new-widow-regulator hangs-in-there...Sometimes after 10,000,000 door-slams, the inner panel has too-much movement from all the open & closures, & the poor motor gets a hard time all-the-time due to varying alignment.

I have a whole-heap of questions to ask, so I'll ask them over a period of time, to keep the thread afloat, as it's a beauty...

Over the years I've learned that it's not necessarily engine size that dictates high fuel consumption, as everyone thinks. eg, Just because you have a 7.5-ltr motor, doesn't mean its more thirsty than say a 6.1-ltr travelling down the hwy, with the same running-gear & load. In fact, they'll be very similar, & quite possibly the 7.5-ltr motor offering better mileage...

So my question is to both PowerStroker & our host Stellar...

Since you both now have work-horse trucks, but by different makers, ( GM vs Ford ), & are likely of similar specification, size, weight & payload etc etc, my question is this...

Which truck drinks more fuel ??? (Our host has a 3.8 ltr V-6, & PowerStroker the 7.5 ltr V-8, but both engines pull similar load & push through the same winds on the hwy).

*I'm guessing that the result is closer than further apart, with the big V-8 having overtaking power to spare on the hwy, & as such, a small expense in fuel consumption is paid, & the V-6 maybe better mileage overall, especially city traffic & when sitting at traffic-lights.

-- Edited by Rastus on Friday 28th of June 2024 02:09:52 AM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I think it was 10 miles per gallon last I checked on the 460.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

PowerStroker wrote:
I think it was 10 miles per gallon last I checked on the 460.

Thanks PowerStroker, & that's actually not-too-bad, & quite an efficient motor to be quite honest, though many may not think so...

To save time & mathematics (lol) for those of us who live in a metricized world, where Km rule over Miles, & litres over US gallons, the numbers calculate roughly like this...

PowerStroker's 460 gets around 4.0-km's travel for every litre consumed...Or if you rather, your average coffee-cup contains about 250-mls of liquid, & if that was gasoline, you would travel 1.0-km with that 7.5-ltr V-8.

Interestingly, this V-8 is more efficient that my GSXR-1300, when capacity is compared with fuel used.

I get an average of 16-km travel for 1.0-litre of fuel used, or if you rather, 4.0-km travel for 250-mls consumed...

*You may ask, how is the 7.5 litre more efficient ??? ...It's nearly 6-times larger-capacity-motor, but drinks "only" 4-times more fuel...And the vehicle weights are around say at least 2,000 kg's for the truck with fuel & driver, & possibly 400-kg's for the bike with fuel & shopping etc etc. That's a 5:1 difference in weight, so the truck wins.

Q. What is the engine component that sits in the V-8's valley near & above No.4 Cam-bearing ???

-- Edited by Rastus on Friday 28th of June 2024 10:35:36 PM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

If you're talking about the lump sticking up toward the back of the valley with 2 threaded plugs in it, that is an oil crossover passage which is part of the engine block and connects both lifter oil galleries. I removed all plugs (including those) during teardown so the machine shop could clean the passages better. The engine hardware kit I got from Pioneer came with new threaded plugs for everything.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

PowerStroker wrote:
If you're talking about the lump sticking up toward the back of the valley with 2 threaded plugs in it, that is an oil crossover passage which is part of the engine block and connects both lifter oil galleries. I removed all plugs (including those) during teardown so the machine shop could clean the passages better. The engine hardware kit I got from Pioneer came with new threaded plugs for everything.

Thanks PowerStroker, & yes, that's the component that I was wondering about.

Many OHV V-8 engines made & designed in the 1960's, had a relatively long production-run, like the 460. And not only did they receive tweaks here & there, some saw dramatic changes through the decades, one of which was the swap from carburation over to multi-point EFI...Now when this happened, the general trend indicated not only cyl-head-revision's & possible new valve locations, but the swap from 2-plane manifolds, over to completely-new, redesigned, equal length runners in a single-plane design, with a suitable sized throttle etc etc.

Q. It's interesting to note that the EFI 460 V-8 retained the dual-plane design, with 2 x throttles feeding 4-cylinders each, but with multi-point, port-injection fitted. Will you consider a move over to a single-plane-manifold at some stage, so as to allow each cylinder to feed-off the 2 x throttles, & so dramatically enhance cylinder-filling-potential at WOT (& Hp numbers), whilst still retaining the "speed density" set-up ???

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Not planning on it, the dual plane is better for low and midrange torque, so in a truck application it works better. The 2 throttles aren't actually separated behind the throttle blades, they both empty into that long neck upper intake plenum. Mine does have a fuel injector for each cylinder, but they are bank fired rather than sequential. Meaning, the entire left bank of injectors fires at once, and then the right, and so on. There are aftermarket kits available to convert these to sequentially injected MAF, rather than bank fired speed density, but it's a couple thousand dollars, and it would make diagnostics very difficult as the vehicle wiring diagram would no longer pertain to my vehicle. Also, such kits come with a custom flashed PCM that could only be replaced by the company you bought it from (assuming they are still in business when you need one) or a custom tuning company... I'd rather keep that stuff stock and retain my ability to diagnose problems and obtain replacement parts in the future.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I put gas in it today and calculated 8.8 miles per gallon with the A/C on almost the entire time, and some idle time included, so realistically it would be more like 9 mpg this time.

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

PowerStroker wrote:
I put gas in it today and calculated 8.8 miles per gallon with the A/C on almost the entire time, and some idle time included, so realistically it would be more like 9 mpg this time.

Whoa...

That's still not too-bad, & can be expected with a new tight engine during break-in, plus the likely more WOT moments needed to burnish the new parts...

That said, once the beast is broken-in fully, I highly recommend you pop-in a bottle of Slick-50 or similar, to protect your parts & investment. The difference in performance you'll find to be staggering, especially after the 2nd start-up after adding it in. I also recommend grabbing a 2nd bottle, & pouring 100-mls in each diff plus some for the transmission & power-steering, anywhere there's oil needed. You will be amazed, & I'd be surprised if your MPG figure didn't increase to 11 or more. Throw the dregs of the bottles in the fuel tanks for your new fuel-pumps to enjoy...And should you do this, & you're not satisfied / blown away by the results, I'll pay you back personally...

Q. You must have been shocked after all the machine-work etc to find that you had no thrust clearance after checking, especially since it was the worn thrust bearing that initiated the rebuild in the first place...From memory, the general allowable clearance is around 0.035", which is simply something that you can just feel when moving back & forth the crank-shaft. Obviously you measured with a dial-gauge to check the end-float as the photographs show, but how many times did you remove the crank-shaft & caps until you got the necessary clearance ?...(I'm guessing quite a few times, as that's painstaking & time-consuming).

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

The machine shop wasn't in possession of the new bearings so they wouldn't have known, and would have dealt with it the same way if they had. Spec is .004 to .008'' on that thrust. I'm sure It had quite a bit more than that before the machine work, but I had the main caps cut and then the mains line honed which often causes thrust clearance to tighten up from what I hear. Plus the new bearings are probably made a little thick so people can sand them down to whatever they need to achieve proper thrust. I'm just glad I checked or I would have burned up the new one by now.

I'll probably do an oil change after work on it today. I'm using Valvoline VR1 Racing oil which is specifically made with plenty of zddp to prevent flat tappet camshaft wear - like how oils used to be formulated for everything. It's safer than using regular oil with zddp additive, because too much zddp can actually accelerate cam wear. This truck will live on VR1 racing oil, but I may switch to the synthetic version after I'm sure the rings have had plenty of time to break in first. I may try some slick 50 too at some point if you really believe in it that much.

Truck is running better than ever though, and the driver's window now works too which is nice.

-- Edited by PowerStroker on Monday 1st of July 2024 08:48:12 AM

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

Good stuff ! A lot of Oil Companies have a section in their websites where you can pop-in your vehicles details, hit enter, & the recommended oil type for your specification will come-up. Plenty of the Oil-Majors down here are simply selling most products in the semi-synthetic category, with a cheaper "regular" mineral-based-version, along with at least a couple full "synthetic types" where weights & additives vary quite a bit, along with pricing too. Best to check on the website for sure.

Slick-50 or similar PTFE additive is good stuff, throw small amounts of it into anything that has oil living in it as a lubricant, once your engine is broken-in...It's main advantage imo is that once all your oil is pulled-down into your sump via gravity, there's a protective coating on all your parts of PTFE keeping things slippery until oil arrives. On the basis that your truck will spend winter in the garage, I'd put it in before then. Slick-50 advertised that it hangs around for 50,000 Miles after 1-treatment...The stuff Nulon sells here in Oz is a 1 x per-year treatment, to keep the coating secure.

Q. Your cylinder-heads were re-manufactured after-market bolt-ons...I'm guessing that K-liner valve-guide inserts are used, new springs (at around 120-lbs pressure or more), new over-sized stainless-steel valves with at least a 3 x angle-cut, proper valve-seats, porting, equalized chamber volume, & other trick stuff was incorporated in them. Could you elaborate further on why you chose these heads, & what features appealed the most ?...Did you have a choice on these features ?...

-- Edited by Rastus on Monday 1st of July 2024 09:35:25 PM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

The heads are brand new reproductions of the "F3TZ" 460 cylinder heads, and are made by Promaxx. Because I wanted to keep the factory fuel injection without much modification, I had only 2 choices... The E7TZ heads that came off of it, which were introduced when these engines first went to EFI in 1988 and have smaller valves and ports, or the upgraded F3TZ 'fast burn' heads with bigger valves and ports which were introduced by Ford in LATE 1993, and continued until end of production. These are the ONLY 2 options for 460's with factory fuel injection. Prior to 1988, when the 460 was carbureted, the cylinder heads had different port locations, shapes, and angles. An EFI intake may physically bolt up to Carbureted heads, but the ports won't line up. The same is true for exhaust manifolds.

No aftermarket company produces performance heads for the EFI 460, though there is an abundance of aftermarket performance heads in the carbureted style.

While it would be possible to use performance carbureted heads with an aftermarket carbureted intake that has injector bungs, or get intake flange adapters from Price Motorsports, I would still have to get aftermarket fuel rails, and an adapter plate to attach the upper intake plenum to it, to say nothing of finding a set of exhaust headers that would fit in my year truck but have exhaust flanges for the carbureted heads which are also different (oval vs square exhaust ports). Plus I'd have to get a custom EGR tube fabricated and who knows what else. All of this would add an enormous amount of expense and downtime for very little gain in a speed-density truck application that spends its life under 4000 rpm. Unless I also wanted to upgrade the fuel injection to MAF, which can be done, and would then allow me to run a hotter cam. But that would require a new computer, and since my computer also controls the transmission, now we're talking about also buying a standalone transmission controller. Now we have reached the point where the cost for these ideas approach or exceed the value of the vehicle itself. That last 60 horse power becomes awfully expensive, and turns the truck into an un-diagnoseable nightmare that even Rex wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

My purpose for doing this was to repair it and perform reasonable upgrades at the same time, not to re-engineer the vehicle. There is such a thing as doing too much.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

PowerStroker wrote:

It has a little bit more power than it used to, but nothing that will blow your doors off. I did have to stay within the limits of what the speed-density fuel injection could tolerate, which isn't much change from stock. The exhaust headers, better flowing heads, and adjustable fuel pressure regulator do help. Right now the ignition timing is set to 10 degrees btdc, which is spec. I'll probably bump that to 11 or 12 after break in and get a little more power out of it. She seems pretty healthy as is though.

If you set your base crank gear timing at 2 degrees advance as shown in the photo then your camshaft is nowhere near stock, that's just a mathematical certainty and I'm not sure who you're trying to fool with that.

You are aware what happens when they grind a camshaft, right?

But soon as PowerStroker mentioned Slick50 -- I knew... he's BS'n us, or his rebuild wasn't a success.

In fact, this entire build was a waste of money... everything from the exhaust, roller rockers, clearly larger camshaft, higher compression pistons -- everything that was upgraded is nothing but a waste of money as now the engine fights itself with every single revolution... a lot of guys think "oh it don't matter" when it comes to speed density -- but it makes a HUGE difference... I wouldn't doubt if the engine feels less powerfull than before PowerStroker built it -- but we know he won't admit that... but he's chasing fuel pumps, and considering slick50 so something is wrong. Even boring the engine over .030 or even .020 should have a re-program.

I just don't understand why someone would even bother with roller rockers (which are probably a larger ratio than stock too), an exhaust system -- and clearly a bigger camshaft if he wasn't going to convert it to mass air! PowerStroker having to set base timing +2 degrees advance on the cam sprocket to bring it within specs? Only one of two things can be true... either that camshaft is nowhere near stock specs, or he didn't degree the camshaft proper.

That's all I got to say about that...

Oh, and Rastus -- my S10 is NOT a big truck... it's not even 4X4! It's a work truck and it has the Vortec 4.3 liter which is pretty much a 350 but with two cylinders chopped off... I go thru about a tank of gas a month, sometimes longer if I am not loaning it out. It is a work truck.

(Edited because it was actually set to 2 degrees advance -- not 5 -- but still doesn't matter as it's major and should have been zero if it was factory -- or run out right)

-- Edited by SELLC on Tuesday 2nd of July 2024 01:13:24 AM

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

In fact, the more I look at the photos between the original pistons, and the newer pistons -- it almost seems like his compression would be MUCH lower as the dishes on the new pistons are MUCH deeper!

Rastus · UNSTOPPABLE!

Yo,

Stellar, I bet you $100:00 ( US-of-I dollars too btw ), that you clicked on that link to the Trumpdt library PowerStroker has attached, & that's what's got you all upset...I'd be more concerned with Uncle Sam knockin' on your door looking for your boys perhaps...

Move to Australia folks ! We're only knee-deep in all the bullshyte...It seems that some folks are in-over-their-heads...

* PowerStroker built a solid, better than OEM stock engine, with the intention of long-term-reliability. I'm only suggesting the Slick-50 PTFE treatment to enhance / ensure that probability.

PowerStroker also measured the "true" TDC of the piston-to-crank relationship, to eliminate the "near enough is close enough" estimate the factory makes. And by doing so, had to arrange the cam-sprocket on the 2-degree setting, so as to get the cam in the right spot, as per the lift indicated on No1 intake-lobe, & the true TDC position.

And it's true that roller rockers increase valve open & close timings, up to 6 or more degrees even with stock ratios...But flow is only affected at lifts at 0.050 or more, which is why spec-sheets often give the 2 x values of seat-to-seat duration ( adv.dur. ) & nominal duration...All this to say that at idle speeds, the difference would be marginal, which is why the vacuum is within tolerance...

On the basis that PowerStroker was able to retard the timing 6-degrees safely, yes, he would net more top-end-power & a higher RPM ceiling of maybe 250-to-500 RPM without losing bottom-end-torque. But his EFI may start to play-up, though unlikely...This is where you learn from playing around with things, but it's time consuming, costly, & without a dyno, hard to gauge the net improvements.

-- Edited by Rastus on Tuesday 2nd of July 2024 03:02:56 AM

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

Rex I've already explained that I degreed the camshaft and needed the 2 degree advance keyway to make it fall into spec. There is even a picture of it. You do know how to degree a camshaft and the reason for it right?

I've also explained that the later design pistons I used have a bigger dish, but a taller compression height for the same effective ratio.

Pay attention.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Look, I'm not going to argue with you or Rastus about it... I said what I said!

Your modifications require either the PCM to be re-programmed, or ideally your EFI system needs to be upgraded to a learning "mass air" setup. PERIOD.

Slick50 is shit -- and only used on shit engines that are worn out. PERIOD.

Regardless what you might say about the dish and compression height -- the quench will not be the same with these aftermarket pistons (which were probably designed for people who upgraded to heart shape chamberd aftermarket heads)... but again, you knew your limitations with your current engine management system going into the project -- and I was up front about it from the very start! So really you should have been paying attention.

Oh, and Rastus -- you can put purfume and lipstick on a pig -- wont change the fact it's still a pig! But I agree with you, cosmetically the engine looks wonderful! Too bad that's pretty much where it ends.

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

What's eating you?

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

Nothing is eating me... You did a great job PowerStroker, and you did it in damn good time too! It looks great!

But I have always said since the start that your speed density system (pre-programed engine management system) was going to be a problem. Maybe you don't feel there is a problem -- maybe there is no problem, but I doubt that since you have opened up the size of the engine beyond any normal wear that would be naturally occourring -- not to mention numerous performance enhancements that make it a mathmatical certainty that your existing engine management system will not be able to support.

With regards to Slick50 -- well, I have always made my feelings on that stuff clear! But it's your engine! You can pour whatever you want in there!

I don't want people reading this last part of your thread thinking I'm trying to take away from your build! You did a great job! It looks beautiful and I have lathered on the praise in both the quality of parts you have purchased and your craftsmanship! However, the speed density issue I have always been concerned about! The Slick50 thing is just something I don't feel that a newly rebuilt engine should be subjected to. If Slick50 does in fact put a coating that sticks inside the engine then that's just proof it would also put this coating in areas where it is not wanted such as on your pickup screen and your bearings! You did a crush test to ensure your clearances were within spec, so why the hell would you pour something in there that is only going to tighten up an already tight engine? It doesn't make sense! It also doesn't make sense you would spend the money on these performance enhancing parts if your current engine management system was unable to handle them -- and I guess that is what is eating me. So if you think it's politics, or Eden that is eating me you would be wrong. I'm just giving you an honest opinion -- and that's all it is! An opinion based on what you have said.

Would you rather I lied or omitted it?

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

I haven't put any slick 50 in yet, or even bought any. Rastus believes in the stuff and I've never used it so I don't know one way or the other. I guess between the two of you guys there is one vote in favor, and one vote against.

Pre programmed engine management system may not be an entirely accurate description of what this is... The Ford speed density system has an oxygen sensor, and is able to adapt slightly to variances, but the window of adjustability is very small compared to a MAF system. Going .020 oversize to clean up the cylinders isn't going to push it out of its adjustability window. The camshaft I ended up getting is a stock replacement from Melling, and Ford used the same camshaft throughout the entire production run of EFI 460's, so no issue there. The cam was degreed to achieve 110 degrees on intake lobe center which is the stock spec. The pistons are Speed Pro replacements for the later build 460 - which was also a speed density engine in most cases (except the 96-97 California emissions trucks which got a MAF), so no issue with the different pistons. The heads I got are also meant for the speed density 460, just a later version of it to breathe better at higher RPM. The only remaining issues that could potentially cause problems with speed density, are the exhaust headers, and adjustable fuel pressure regulator. I did my research and verified those too fall within the narrow window of adjustability as long as the fuel pressure isn't adjusted to a ridiculous level, mine is set to 46 psi at WOT/no vacuum - which is how I figured out my front fuel pump was failing, it couldn't reach 46 psi at WOT and would actually drop, but the rear pump held steady.

As far as the speed density software differences between early and late build (federal emission) engines, is the later build (96-97) had a slightly more aggressive ignition timing advance curve, and the ability to show pids/datastream, which the early PCM's did not. I had already replaced the PCM with one from the later build long before I ever did this rebuild just so I could have the ability to view pid data. The original PCM had a part number that started with F2 (1992), It now has PCM part number F6TF-12A650-AHA which is the one for EFI 460 96-97 model year with the E4OD automatic trans and fed emissions. As far as PCM hardware differences go between early and late, the circuit board inside looks very different, but there are only 2 wires that need to be swapped in the connector, pins #11 and #51. If you don't swap those pins in the PCM connector you get codes for AIR solenoid and diverter valve circuit faults, because Ford swapped those 2 circuits when they went to the later PCM, and it will detect that the resistance of those solenoids not being what it expects if they are crossed, so you have to make them correct for the PCM you are using. All other circuits and pin locations were identical throughout the entire production run of speed density 460's.

I have over 1200 miles on it since the rebuild, and it's running better than it ever has. It is smooth at idle, no codes, it goes into closed loop and fuel trims are normal.

I was careful with what I did to avoid problems. I didn't put crazy shit like Kaase P51 heads on it, or a big cam or anything like that. It was basically rebuilt to be what the stock engine would be at the end of it's production run in 1997 with headers and FPR cranked up a few psi, and a few upgrades that improve longevity (roller rockers, head studs, cam saver lifters etc) but have no effect on anything else. The reason for the adjustable FPR is because these go into open loop at WOT, and the programmed fuel map at WOT is on the lean side. When in closed loop, the few extra psi still fall within the adjustability window.

I promise I did my research, and the results are good. It's still a 90's truck and won't blow the doors off of a sports car, but it makes a little more power than it used to, and that's all I wanted. If speed density couldn't handle a .020 overbore to clean up the cylinders, there would be a LOT of people with drivability problems after installing a reman engine. It's not an issue, though a HUGE overbore could go beyond what it can adjust for.

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

You don't have to convince me PowerStroker... it's your truck! If you're happy with everything that is all that matters.

Interesting though, you mention above a little bit here on this, different heads on that, different PCM, aftermarket camshaft (advertised as stock), and a host of other things... if you ask me, all of them "little" bits added up make for a whole lot of lost HP.

But again, if you're happy -- THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS... although I will say this -- since when has someone who modified their vehicles (even just a little) ever been happy? It's a sickness!

And I will also say this... .020 overbore IS beyond the limits of your pre-programed engine management system. That is a fact! In my early days when speed density systems were all the rave it became clear REAL QUICK their limits when modifying them... soon after we got the mass air -- which is still used today along with many other newer technologies in other areas.

Don't sell yourself short... I'm sure you could handle the conversion, should you ever get an itch to unlock them extra ponies!

PowerStroker · UNSTOPPABLE!

If I were going to unlock lots of extra ponies, I'd do it in a pony car like a Mustang or Trans Am, or even a Corvette, not something with the ride quality of a brick.

I will say though I'm glad I have the 460. I've driven these old body style Fords with 351W which seems under powered, and the 7.3 Diesel which is a dog off the line, the 460 though has some grunt even with 3.55 gears!

SELLC · CERTIFIED POST WHORE

If it's as quick as the last one I drove back in the mid- 1990's then you should be fine -- especially in that short bed/standard cab configuration. It was on 38's and long-bed extended cab too, so it was a cinderblock on wheels and it still was scary fast.

Speaking of conversions and mustangs, I'm about to dig mine out from it's indoor storage in the next few weeks. I did a full conversion on that one too -- did the whole harness including the one behind the dash to ensure it was A1. It took care of ALL the problems with a hunting idle and was a completely different animal in terms of power and drivability! I mean it was night and day! Also, my F303 cam run out and didn't need any extra timing degreed in to the crank sprocket (even though it's much bigger than stock) -- although I do have the indexed crank gear, I have the gear drive on mine. I had to modify the timing cover -- but it's an Edelbrock part and the modifications to the cover were detailed in the instructions.

Sounds like you're happy enough... for now! LOL

Enjoy!